Ignoring the tongue weight (max cargo/payload)?

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Casflynn

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I wouldnt be too concerned with getting the truck to the max gvw, 7500 lbs, think of it this way, you and 7 buddies hop in that thing to go golfing and your at 7500, I just don’t like going over, especially going over the rear axle weight of 4300, good way to tear things up on an independent rear

Length of trailer is tricky, end of day is all about sway, longer trailer vs shorter wheelbase invites sway. Sway is the trailer making the rear end of your truck move which keeps the sway growing, think of a semi or a single cab dually truck, short wheelbase right, but all the tires keep it planted, you got two tires trying to stop all the lateral motion from the huge sail behind you, once it starts, it’s hard to stop, if you have never seen or experienced it, it ain’t fun, point projection hitch’s stop this, and every friction type sway hitch attempts to stop it. Bottom line, get the best hitch you can afford.

Tires are kind of easy, over inflating p metric types do not increase load capability, but airing them up to 40 or 45 with an xl load tire, takes some of “squirm” out of the tire. LT is a whole new ballgame, match load rating to vehicle, but tires pressures will be something like 40 to 60 some depending on tire, LT tires have a much stiffer sidewall. I have Cooper AT3 4S in an XL rating, no LT tires in my 275/55-20 size that would go over well wife the wife, it’s her daily driver, but the XL tire tows much better than the stock Hankooks.


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Casflynn

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To answer the length question directly, I think max for a short wheelbase base expy(119) is around 26, 30 for an el, and when I say 30, I mean hitch to tail, not box size. A 30 ft trailer ends up being close to 33 or 34 all said and done, watch how each trailer manufacturer decides their models.


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montecarlo31

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If you are really in a bind to remove weight from the Expedition you can also drop the spare tire. That's 50 plus lbs right there and it hangs over the rear end.
 

rdlangston13

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Also remember that with a WDH, tongue weight is not the only weight added to the rear axle. Your real axle will act as a pivot point and some of the front axle weight will transfer to the rear axle, so now you have the tongue weight plus weight from the front axle all being added to the rear.

That being said I’m sure I over the crap out of my expedition. 5 adults, one child, back packs, and a 6900 lbs boat trailer without weight disruption. Yeah, oops.


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audiodane

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Yeah it was an interesting "ah-ha!" moment when I realized moving the luggage from the trunk to the trailer actually improved my margins... because only a fraction of that luggage weight is now on the vehicle.... totally counter-intuitive...
 

mwells

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Another point to remember. Over 30 feet will keep you out of some national and state parks. Also over 30 feet can be very difficult to find a gas station and pumps where you can get in and out of easily. Just food for thought.
 

shane_th_ee

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GVWR - Total actual= 840lbs
RGAWR - back axle = 750lbs
GCWR - Total actual = 8,300lbs

SO, questions:

  1. If I don't use a WDH, I am limited to 750lbs, yes? (granted that may dip the back end too much, this is just for numbers sake)
  2. If I do use a WDH, I can go to 840lbs as long as the individual axles aren't over their respective limits?
  3. This is likely a hotly debated topic- but are these limits already taking safety margins into account? e.g. do I need to derate everything 10-20%, or do manufacturers already perform testing to some degree beyond these limits so that these are valid upper limits?

OK, last question for now.... Length....

I have read from some folks that length matters tremendously while traveling (and of course when navigating back into the campsite); that the longer you are, the more likely you are to sway and loose control and even tip. Others say length really doesn't matter, but that the entire discussion is around and about weight..

We have an Expedition EL.. we're already 18' long. Is pulling something with a total/exterior length longer than 30' a bad idea? Or do I need to stick with something with a total exterior length under 30' with this vehicle? And is this recommendation just based upon empirical personal experience, or some other guidance/rule-of-thumb that I have yet to find?

If you don't use a WDH, you'll be limited to max receiver dead weight (mine's 600lbs), not sure what your 2014's is. If you do use a WDH, you may or may not be able to get all the way to 840 as it'll depend on how the weight shifts from the front axle to the rear axle when the trailer is attached and then how effectively the WDH gets the weight off the rear axle and onto the steering and trailer axles. (You might get more than 840, you might get less).

The trick with length and safety is that it's not so much about length over-all as it is about controlling sway. And sway is about weight distribution. The longer your trailer, the higher the percentage of tongue weight you'll want to keep the thing from swaying (look for the u-haul video on you-tube.) So in practice, if you get that really long 8300lb trailer you'll end up wanting to put more than the 10% minimum tongue weight just to keep it from swaying.

And, yes, the max weight ratings for the vehicle do include safety margins. The recommended "20% de-rating for towing capacity" is a rule of thumb because most people don't go weigh their truck before shopping for a trailer. You've gone and done your homework and now you know what your real numbers are and not just what was in the glossy brochure that the nice Ford salesman gave you.

Finally, keep in mind that "dry" weights are next to useless for figuring out tongue weights. Ours is ~4100lbs dry, but we end up with a ~930lb tongue weight on a 23' long trailer because it's got a 60gal fresh tank right behind the front wall and two 6V GC batteries and two 30lb propane tanks, and...
 
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audiodane

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Another point to remember. Over 30 feet will keep you out of some national and state parks. Also over 30 feet can be very difficult to find a gas station and pumps where you can get in and out of easily. Just food for thought.

Hmm. Thanks @mwells! I will have a look around at that..

If you don't use a WDH, you'll be limited to max receiver dead weight (mine's 600lbs), not sure what your 2014's is. If you do use a WDH, you may or may not be able to get all the way to 840 as it'll depend on how the weight shifts from the front axle to the rear axle when the trailer is attached and then how effectively the WDH gets the weight off the rear axle and onto the steering and trailer axles. (You might get more than 840, you might get less).

The trick with length and safety is that it's not so much about length over-all as it is about controlling sway. And sway is about weight distribution. The longer your trailer, the higher the percentage of tongue weight you'll want to keep the thing from swaying (look for the u-haul video on you-tube.) So in practice, if you get that really long 8300lb trailer you'll end up wanting to put more than the 10% minimum tongue weight just to keep it from swaying.

And, yes, the max weight ratings for the vehicle do include safety margins. The recommended "20% de-rating for towing capacity" is a rule of thumb because most people don't go weigh their truck before shopping for a trailer. You've gone and done your homework and now you know what your real numbers are and not just what was in the glossy brochure that the nice Ford salesman gave you.

Finally, keep in mind that "dry" weights are next to useless for figuring out tongue weights. Ours is ~4100lbs dry, but we end up with a ~930lb tongue weight on a 23' long trailer because it's got a 60gal fresh tank right behind the front wall and two 6V GC batteries and two 30lb propane tanks, and...

Thanks so much, @shane_th_ee! I wouldn't *not* use a WDH for the type of camper we're looking at; but was just wanting to understand the math..

The length-vs-tongue weight issue is interesting. I will go look up this uhaul youtube for some more information. I've just heard 10-15% tongue weight but no guidance beyond that. And I've never considered the WDH actually pushing weight back onto the trailer. I've only thought about it pushing it to the front steering axle. That is very interesting. I suppose that is why the measurement spreadsheets want to see both with WDH bars attached as well as without -- to better see WHERE all that weight is going...

I'm pleased to hear that I don't need to further derate my numbers by 20%, too. I can understand the derating-by-20% for those not weighing ahead of time. That is indeed a good rule of thumb.

Your ~930lb tongue weight on a 23' trailer is very interesting. But then again, your 60gal tank is larger than most every 23' trailer I've seen. Mind me asking what brand & model you have?

is it easy to see "ahead of [purchsae] time" how the tongue weight will be affected by battery/liquid/LP/etc? They usually just spec their dry weight and their GTWR (and/or cargo capacity).. but I don't think I've seen how much of that default cargo will affect the tongue weight..

cheers,
..dane
 

shane_th_ee

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Hmm. Thanks @mwells! I will have a look around at that..



Thanks so much, @shane_th_ee! I wouldn't *not* use a WDH for the type of camper we're looking at; but was just wanting to understand the math..

The length-vs-tongue weight issue is interesting. I will go look up this uhaul youtube for some more information. I've just heard 10-15% tongue weight but no guidance beyond that. And I've never considered the WDH actually pushing weight back onto the trailer. I've only thought about it pushing it to the front steering axle. That is very interesting. I suppose that is why the measurement spreadsheets want to see both with WDH bars attached as well as without -- to better see WHERE all that weight is going...

I'm pleased to hear that I don't need to further derate my numbers by 20%, too. I can understand the derating-by-20% for those not weighing ahead of time. That is indeed a good rule of thumb.

Your ~930lb tongue weight on a 23' trailer is very interesting. But then again, your 60gal tank is larger than most every 23' trailer I've seen. Mind me asking what brand & model you have?

is it easy to see "ahead of [purchsae] time" how the tongue weight will be affected by battery/liquid/LP/etc? They usually just spec their dry weight and their GTWR (and/or cargo capacity).. but I don't think I've seen how much of that default cargo will affect the tongue weight..

cheers,
..dane
We have a 2013 Outdoors RV Creekside 18CK. It's actually only an 18ft box, and 22'3" tip to tip. It's the shortest trailer I could find which would sleep 6 (it sleeps 7)*. The Outdoors RV brand is known for designing quality, rugged, 4 season trailers suitable for off-grid camping. But they also have a well-served reputation for shockingly high "real world" tongue weights. (They even offer a 4-battery tray option. Just in case I needed another 120-130lbs of tongue weight.)

The easiest way to get an idea of loaded tongue weight is to find an owners forum and ask current owners what their weights are. Short of that, you're left looking at size and number of propane tanks and batteries, water tank size and locations and storage area locations all relative to the axle location. (Rule of thumb, the farther forward something is from the trailer axles, the more it contributes to tongue weight. The farther aft something is from the trailer axles, the more it REDUCES tongue weight. And if it's right over the trailer axles, it doesn't contribute to tongue weight at all.) Of course, if you're only planning on camping with full hookups then you don't really have to worry about weight you'll never carry.

As for why we have two 6V batteries, yes they are better than 2 12V deep cycle batteries. The 12V deep cycle batteries are "marine/RV" batteries and more of a hybrid than a true deep cycle. In the "marine" application, they are still expected to support the high current draw of a starter. Which means the plates, while still thicker than a car battery, are not as thin as a true deep cycle battery. A 6V golf cart battery, however, is a true deep cycle battery and not designed with a starter motor in mind. So the plates are much thicker which gives a longer life and allows you to run them down a bit more without damage.

*We have 4 kids and here in the Pacific Northwest, we like to camp in National Forests and Parks. Those campgrounds we mostly built in the 1930's by the CCC and tend to have rather short pads. So every additional foot of length, is another place you can't go and another site you can't use. Oh, and very few of those campgrounds have any hookups; some have no potable water at all.
 
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