Am I just shifting/driving wrong or is the 10r80 that "questionable"?

[amanwithaplan]

I've driven countless cars, including rentals, and I've barely have had any problems that I currently have with my Expedition - with the exact same driving habits. When I say problems - I mean clunks/harsh shifting.

Highway driving doesn't really have clunks, besides maybe from 8th-9th every 15 drives or so. Furthermore, in highway driving, I typically just downshift in anticipation of slowing down - meaning, foot off the accelerator, manually shifting down 10th to 9th, then to 8th, then more if needed. Obviously, this doesn't apply to city driving or speeds less than 40 MPH. But for other cases (highway mainly/sloped driving), I always make it a habit to use the transmission to assist in slowing down. Always been smooth, and haven't had any problems here.

In city driving is where I get the most consistent clunks. The problem lies between the 3rd-4th-5th gears, in which it hangs in 3rd, instead of instantly going to 4th, and when it does decide to shift into 4th, it clunks, almost every time. 3rd directly to 5th has some clunks occasionally, but not nearly as much when it hangs in 3rd and eventually shifts to 4th. I try my best to not let it hang, but depending on the traffic/situation, the acceleration has to vary and therefore, the computer decides to stay in 3rd and then give it 4th, almost begrudingly.

I've already gone to the dealer twice for this issue, and the results were first a valve-body overhaul, then CDF drum replacement. I'm assuming if I go again, it'll likely be a transmission replacement under the powertrain warranty (2021 with 43k miles).

Would love to hear your opinions - thanks.

 

[meder2487]

My '21 Expy is the first vehicle that I have ever owned with a 10 speed transmission. I will admit that it takes a lot of getting used to. I too feel that the shifting is rarely ever smooth and that it is constantly searching for the proper gear. Aside from the known problems with the 10R80, I have brought myself to believe that this transmission is simply different than the older style 6 or less speed transmissions we grew accustomed to. The awkwardness of the 10R80 does have me questioning whether it is worth keeping the vehicle or not. Although every other aspect of the Expy is hard to give up.
My old '04 PT Cruiser is more enjoyable to drive with it's old 4 speed auto than the newer 10 speed in the Expy is.

 

[SyndicateZ]

Im surprised the cdf drum replacement didnt fix the issue (unless they didnt use the updated version of the cdf drum)....

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

I've driven countless cars, including rentals, and I've barely have had any problems that I currently have with my Expedition - with the exact same driving habits. When I say problems - I mean clunks/harsh shifting.

Highway driving doesn't really have clunks, besides maybe from 8th-9th every 15 drives or so. Furthermore, in highway driving, I typically just downshift in anticipation of slowing down - meaning, foot off the accelerator, manually shifting down 10th to 9th, then to 8th, then more if needed. Obviously, this doesn't apply to city driving or speeds less than 40 MPH. But for other cases (highway mainly/sloped driving), I always make it a habit to use the transmission to assist in slowing down. Always been smooth, and haven't had any problems here.

In city driving is where I get the most consistent clunks. The problem lies between the 3rd-4th-5th gears, in which it hangs in 3rd, instead of instantly going to 4th, and when it does decide to shift into 4th, it clunks, almost every time. 3rd directly to 5th has some clunks occasionally, but not nearly as much when it hangs in 3rd and eventually shifts to 4th. I try my best to not let it hang, but depending on the traffic/situation, the acceleration has to vary and therefore, the computer decides to stay in 3rd and then give it 4th, almost begrudingly.

I've already gone to the dealer twice for this issue, and the results were first a valve-body overhaul, then CDF drum replacement. I'm assuming if I go again, it'll likely be a transmission replacement under the powertrain warranty (2021 with 43k miles).

Would love to hear your opinions - thanks.

Just research and read the number of TSB’s issued by Ford, specifying repairs to the transmission and associated components.

That will convince you there has been a systemic design and manufacturing problem for multiple years with Ford’s 10-speed transmission, and it is not your driving methods.

 

[2020-MAX-Limited]

You need to tell us what model year and miles on your Expy. I would never manually downshift/upshift in this vehicle. Just put it in D and drive. Learn to use the Drive Mode knob to change behavior. For example, Sport Mode will maintain a higher RPM, shifting later while accelerating and down shifting when slowing to achieve the engine braking you seem to desire.

 

[Fizzy]

I would never manually downshift/upshift in this vehicle. Just put it in D and drive.

This... I can't understand why anyone would do this, unless you're an ultra-hypermiler MPG nut. And even then, the difference would so marginal you'd struggle to buy a cup of coffee with the savings in the course of a year.

Your 10 speed transmission is programmed to work a certain way. You keep deciding you know better and overriding it.

 

[Ugh_J]

I've already gone to the dealer twice for this issue, and the results were first a valve-body overhaul, then CDF drum replacement. I'm assuming if I go again, it'll likely be a transmission replacement under the powertrain warranty (2021 with 43k miles).

Yep, that was what happened with my 2020.

I still notice the new one shudder a little when shifting 1->3->5 or 2->4. I don't have the clunks upshifting, but when I'm slowing down it clunks every time it downshifts into 3rd and makes a faint but audible metallic PING noise like a rock hitting the flex plate. It's not violent but I never had anything like this with the 6R80 in my 2015 F-150. I suspect the biggest part of the issue is that it is set to slip in 1/2/3 and then to lock up the clutches for higher gears, so it lugs and is generally not smooth in those (what I'll call) "transition" gears. Who knows. I'm not a transmission designer.

As for shift testing, Sport and Tow/Haul will put it into "use every gear, not skipping to 1-3-5 or 2-4-6" and will also throttle-blip a little while downshifting early when slowing down. If you have a clunky drive train, those modes will exacerbate those issues, in my experience as the throttle-blip isn't perfect.

As for the manual downshifting, if you're doing that to help with engine braking I would try driving in tow/haul and see if that does the same thing for you, though brake pads are cheaper than transmission wear. If you're doing that to test behaviors you have observed, you can ignore the "that's just stupid lol" responses, IMO. I've done the manual shifting thing to verify whether certain shifts were a repeatable problem as well and it's a valid test case. Not something I'd recommend doing day-to-day as there are just too many delays and caveats in using those controls outside of using it to limit the highest gear it will use (e.g. for limiting it to a lower gear while towing to keep temps down).

Good luck. If it weren't for the damn transmission, I'd have few complaints. Note: GM's 10L80 has similar issues with valve bodies. You can find various videos talking about those problems.

 

[amanwithaplan]

You need to tell us what model year and miles on your Expy. I would never manually downshift/upshift in this vehicle. Just put it in D and drive. Learn to use the Drive Mode knob to change behavior. For example, Sport Mode will maintain a higher RPM, shifting later while accelerating and down shifting when slowing to achieve the engine braking you seem to desire.

This... I can't understand why anyone would do this, unless you're an ultra-hypermiler MPG nut. And even then, the difference would so marginal you'd struggle to buy a cup of coffee with the savings in the course of a year.

Your 10 speed transmission is programmed to work a certain way. You keep deciding you know better and overriding it.

Thanks for the replies. I did have it in the end of my post, but it's a 2021 with about 43k miles. In regards to the drive modes, I tend to keep it in comfort, and occasionally ECO for very long stretches. Very rarely do I put it in sport (for very short on-ramps, maybe), but even then, comfort seems to be fine for that as well. If I'm towing, I keep it in tow-haul and it does all my transmission braking perfectly.

As for downshifting/keeping it in drive, i should have clarified - when i meant manual downshifting, i meant limiting the highest gear using +/- and not selecting M. My bad.

In scenarios where riding the brakes would be likely, I always use the transmission to maintain speed/slow down i.e - hills and slopes. For regular highway driving, the way I see it - in a world where traffic builds because of people over-braking, leading to a cascade that causes others behind to slow down, thus leading to congestion/traffic, I tend to apply the idea of coasting/slowing down without brakes to keep the flow of traffic going. Keeping it in drive, yes would let me coast to slow down, but if I can slow down another 4-5 MPH by downshifting instead of applying brakes, I'd rather do that to keep traffic moving. I don't see it as a problem as I'm only going through the top overdrive gears - it's not like I'm dropping 4-5 gears to slow down (unless it's a steep/steady downgrade).

Yep, that was what happened with my 2020.

I still notice the new one shudder a little when shifting 1->3->5 or 2->4. I don't have the clunks upshifting, but when I'm slowing down it clunks every time it downshifts into 3rd and makes a faint but audible metallic PING noise like a rock hitting the flex plate. It's not violent but I never had anything like this with the 6R80 in my 2015 F-150. I suspect the biggest part of the issue is that it is set to slip in 1/2/3 and then to lock up the clutches for higher gears, so it lugs and is generally not smooth in those (what I'll call) "transition" gears. Who knows. I'm not a transmission designer.

As for shift testing, Sport and Tow/Haul will put it into "use every gear, not skipping to 1-3-5 or 2-4-6" and will also throttle-blip a little while downshifting early when slowing down. If you have a clunky drive train, those modes will exacerbate those issues, in my experience as the throttle-blip isn't perfect.

As for the manual downshifting, if you're doing that to help with engine braking I would try driving in tow/haul and see if that does the same thing for you, though brake pads are cheaper than transmission wear. If you're doing that to test behaviors you have observed, you can ignore the "that's just stupid lol" responses, IMO. I've done the manual shifting thing to verify whether certain shifts were a repeatable problem as well and it's a valid test case. Not something I'd recommend doing day-to-day as there are just too many delays and caveats in using those controls outside of using it to limit the highest gear it will use (e.g. for limiting it to a lower gear while towing to keep temps down).

Good luck. If it weren't for the damn transmission, I'd have few complaints. Note: GM's 10L80 has similar issues with valve bodies. You can find various videos talking about those problems.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I should have clarified in terms of what I meant to say by manual downshifting, definitely on me. I use the +/- to limit the highest gear allowed vs using M to keep it in manual. Should have clarified. In situations where I need to drop it from 85-75, I'd let it coast and if I need to slow down quicker, I limit the higher gears to 9 and if needed, to 8 - essentially downshifting. Tow haul Mode is actually more aggressive than how I'd slow down, towing or not towing.

And I agree - apart from the transmission, the truck has been pleasant and has delivered what I need it for (family of 8, towing, road trips). Some gripes here and there (small rattles and stuff), but I guess it's to be expected with a BoF.

 

[Jettix2]

My 2018 shifted smoothly but had cam phasers and VCT issues that still weren’t quite right after replacement. My 2019 never shifted right. Original owner complained at 9K miles, my initial rebuild (with updated components) happened around 42k, it was fine for awhile and then the clunking came back, so ford put a brand new crate trans in it at 60k and it still shifted like garbage,
So we sold it. Not all brands 10 speed autos shift badly, but the Ford 10R80, in my experience, is hot garbage. No reason you should be having to shift it manually or avoid gears, you should be able to put it in D and not think twice. We replaced our 2019 with an old school 2019 Sequoia that uses an antiquated 5.7 v8 and 6 speed auto. Gets lousy mpg but will run for 300k miles and shifts like butter every single time.

 

[Dice Roll]

Have they done the tsb for reprogramming the trans?

Manual shifting all the time might be messing with the learn tables. Just a thought.

Mine did some hard shifting when it’s cold outside, occasionally on the interstate it clunked when I’d floor it to get around a fool, then they did an emission tsb on an oil change. That caused harsh engagement. I had them do the tsb and that has made the trans shift really great all the time. Will have to wait for winter to see if the 3-4 and 5-6 still gets me a hard shifting first time through the gears.

Tsb addresses the trans not knowing to account for wear.

 

[Doug12345]

If you have forscan you can reset the adaptives and see what that does. That is FORMOCO first step in troubleshooting transmission. My 2020 f 250 had the 10r140 rebuilt at 80k due to CDF drum bushing migration. My 2020 Expy is at ford right know for the clucky harsh shifts just to get it documented. It only has 42k on it and will surpass the time on powertrain in august. But getting it in prior to expiration will make it easier to customer care to foot the bill after the 5 yrs. The dealer I take it to is awesome and have a very good tranny guy.

Good luck

As for GM and Rams, everyone I know with one has issues, so they all have problems and IMO suck the same.

 

[Moeman]

I consider myself to be hard to satisfy when it comes to powertrain calibration, and I was expecting the worst having heard about the launch of this transmission on the F150. However, gotta say I have been pleasantly surprised with both the engine and transmission on our 22 XLT. Sure, there's an occasional hard shift, but usually it's due to an abnormal condition that has been created by the driver. No transmission is perfect, but I really have no complaints with this one.

I'm surprised to hear about your habits with manual shifting. I use manual now and again, but its pretty rare. I like manual transmissions, but if I'm driving an auto, I'm letting it do the work.

 

[Rednecked]

I turned off adaptive learning with Forscan. Wayyyyyyy better!!! Try it. You can always turn it back on if you don’t like it.

 

[Zelf24]

If you have forscan you can reset the adaptives and see what that does. That is FORMOCO first step in troubleshooting transmission. My 2020 f 250 had the 10r140 rebuilt at 80k due to CDF drum bushing migration. My 2020 Expy is at ford right know for the clucky harsh shifts just to get it documented. It only has 42k on it and will surpass the time on powertrain in august. But getting it in prior to expiration will make it easier to customer care to foot the bill after the 5 yrs. The dealer I take it to is awesome and have a very good tranny guy.

Good luck

As for GM and Rams, everyone I know with one has issues, so they all have problems and IMO suck the same.

I turned off adaptive learning with Forscan. Wayyyyyyy better!!! Try it. You can always turn it back on if you don’t like it.

I too, have a 2021. By any chance do you have a direct link on how I can do both a: resetting the adaptives and b: turning off adaptive learning?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Rednecked]

I too, have a 2021. By any chance do you have a direct link on how I can do both a: resetting the adaptives and b: turning off adaptive learning?

Thank you in advance!

Go to….

Download FORScan

Clear first then turn off

 

[Mr Big]

A temporary fix is to use FORScan and reset the learn on the TCM. However, the occasional clunking and weird shifting comes back after a month or 2. I finally took mine in, as it is still under extended powertrain warranty. It's getting a tranny rebuild or replacement. due to TSB 25-2132 - 2018-2021 Expedition-Navigator - Harsh-Delayed Engagement And-Or Harsh-Delayed Shifting.

 

[Zelf24]

Go to….

Download FORScan

Clear first then turn off

Right. That’s the question. Where do you find those two options in Forscan?

Thanks.

 

[Mr Big]

Right. That’s the question. Where do you find those two options in Forscan?

Thanks.

Under Asbuilt

 

[danimerciss22]

I will admit that it takes a lot of getting used to. I too feel that the shifting is rarely ever smooth and that it is constantly searching for the proper gear. Aside from the known problems with the 10R80, I have brought myself to believe that this transmission is simply different than the older style 6 or less speed transmissions we grew accustomed to.

Speed Test​

 

[Calidad]

The 10spd vs any number of crazy throttle input ie a zillion types of drivers.. The 10spd definitely has more to process and interpret than the 3 spds, 4’s, 5’s and so on.

I think we all know drivers that could scramble a single speed transmission

Yes the 10 spd seems sensitive to inputs