Bad Cam Phasers - Causing CEL and Surging?

[NukeLife]

We started having poor acceleration that was diagnosed as transmission issues soon after the phasers were replaced. The first attempt at a fix was to replace the valve body and within a week the alternator died. 2 days after picking it up a CEL came on for an issue with the evap system, so it went back to the dealer and they said it was a loose connection. A week later we began having hard shifting and stalling so it went back to the dealer and the transmission was mostly rebuilt. A CEL came on the day after picking it up which was for the catalytic converter and now our Expedition has been at the dealer for 4 weeks waiting on a back ordered cat.

That’s a lot of coincidences, I think if I’d have just dealt with the rattle at start up we would not have had these other issues. We currently have about 31k miles and we’ve only had the vehicle 2 weeks out of the past 2-3 months. If there are factory programming issues causing all of this then I don’t have high hopes of getting a reliable vehicle back unless a new flash takes care of it.

I’m curious if aftermarket tuning would help resolve anything but I’m not going to take that chance until the warranty is up, if we keep it that long.

Wow.
I hope you weren’t footing the bill on all of this.

Unbelievable how many major problems these things have in the first 3 years. If this was Toyota, heads would ROLL !
And the company would make sure the customers were all sufficiently made whole.

 

[19FX4Max]

Wow.
I hope you weren’t footing the bill on all of this.

Unbelievable how many major problems these things have in the first 3 years. If this was Toyota, heads would ROLL !
And the company would make sure the customers were all sufficiently made whole.

It's all warranty. 2019, was 3 yrs old at the beginning of July, and 31k miles. I've thought about swaying the wife into trading for a new Expo Max while we have been waiting on a back ordered cat but I'd like to get it back and see if all is well and maybe there were some coincidences in things going out. I've read about all of your issues and you seam to be a pretty patient and understanding person to not completely trash your Expo and still actually like the vehicle. Your decision to move on is understandable but you seem to still be pretty positive about it.

I'm not too upset about all of this but the wife works from home and I have the option to work from home so we have been ok with just my truck so far. It is getting pretty annoying though so if we have anymore issues when we get it back we may trade it. I think we would most likely go with another Expedition because the only other option to get the Max size is with a Suburban/Yukon XL and I don't really care for them. There's supposed to be an XL version of a Wagoneer coming out and I'm a Chrysler fan but I like the Expo better and I think the wife does too. I know there are plenty of good Expeditions out there and maybe they are more trouble free in 2022.

Have there been many on here with issues that were actually fixed and were trouble free afterwards? I'll provide an update when we get ours back to document if there are more issues or if we have a reliable Expedition. I think it's good information for all to have hope or know when to bail.

 

[Jettix2]

It's all warranty. 2019, was 3 yrs old at the beginning of July, and 31k miles. I've thought about swaying the wife into trading for a new Expo Max while we have been waiting on a back ordered cat but I'd like to get it back and see if all is well and maybe there were some coincidences in things going out. I've read about all of your issues and you seam to be a pretty patient and understanding person to not completely trash your Expo and still actually like the vehicle. Your decision to move on is understandable but you seem to still be pretty positive about it.

I'm not too upset about all of this but the wife works from home and I have the option to work from home so we have been ok with just my truck so far. It is getting pretty annoying though so if we have anymore issues when we get it back we may trade it. I think we would most likely go with another Expedition because the only other option to get the Max size is with a Suburban/Yukon XL and I don't really care for them. There's supposed to be an XL version of a Wagoneer coming out and I'm a Chrysler fan but I like the Expo better and I think the wife does too. I know there are plenty of good Expeditions out there and maybe they are more trouble free in 2022.

Have there been many on here with issues that were actually fixed and were trouble free afterwards? I'll provide an update when we get ours back to document if there are more issues or if we have a reliable Expedition. I think it's good information for all to have hope or know when to bail.

I’m the original poster. We got our 2018 platinum Max back from the dealer two weeks ago at 75,000 miles on it. The total warranty job included replacing the entire panoramic sunroof track, Power running board motors for a second time rear wiper motor cam phasers timing chain said stretched valve cover gasket water pump and a few other things. The turbo that they thought was leaking oil somehow miraculously stopped leaking oil.

The vehicle still had a noticeable surge that I could feel at lower RPMs. I talked to a Ford technician who told me that there seems to be an oil starvation issue on the top end of some of these 2018 to 2021 models. The cam journals wear prematurely due to lack of lubrication which causes lack of oil pressure used to control cam phasers.

I posted up his entire quote in a different thread but that’s basically the story, and it makes sense.

I took the opportunity while there was nothing actively broken on our car to trade it in on a new ‘22 Suburban. I was able to get a GM coupon from an employee I know which knocked the price down considerably and help minimize the pain on the Expedition (which cost us $17k to drive for 15,000 miles, not including fuel and oil. Ouch). My wife liked the expedition platinum Max better but with the amount of problems we had with ours we just couldn’t buy another one.

 

[Jettix2]

His quote (my car was purchased CPO with no repair records. Other guys in the F150 board have had The same problem on trucks that were maintained properly so the consensus is that it is at least partly due to poor design).


The combination of stretched timing chains and surging/hesitation issues after having FSA 21B10 completed are a clear indication that the engine was ran low on oil and/or wasn’t maintained properly. Many times people will change the oil at the maximum interval of 10k miles, regardless of the maintenance indicator. Low oil level/poor maintenance will typically show up first as cam journal scoring, since they’re at the uppermost part of the lubrication system. When the mega caps (front) become scored, oil pressure bleeds off instead of going to the phaser. In the new calibration (21B10), the phasers remain off of base timing more often (to prevent wear), so additional oil volume is required. When the cam caps are scored and oil bleeds off, the phaser cannot be properly controlled. This results in the timing jumping around, which is felt as a surge, shudder, or hesitation. The heads had some changes to the mega caps on later models, I would suspect this was to make them less susceptible to damage from a low oil level."""

 

[Gumby]

Honestly, I have done the phasers now at least 4 times. Each time it is "fixed" for about 2 weeks, it returns. If I can get it done under the parts and labour warranty, I will do it each and every time, because FORD should have to cough for the crappy design. But if it falls out of that warranty, I am not paying for it as it will only come back.

 

[TheDoug]

I’m curious if aftermarket tuning would help resolve anything but I’m not going to take that chance until the warranty is up, if we keep it that long.

I tuned mine within 10 months or so of getting vehicle. I did not have the surging issue before that. I can say the aftermarket tuning did help the transmission shift better for me. I gets rid of that goofy skip gear garbage under light load.