Expedition is Too High Now

[JPOnslaught]

I messed up and I'm trying to figure out how to fix it.

Put on a Ready Lift 3" leveling kit combined with the Rough Country rear control arms to fit some Nitto LT285/65R20's on the ride (stock offset).

Looks amazing (i'd upload pics but the file size is too large and I can't figure out how to get it smaller).

The ride around town is fine, and overall the truck has handled the increased tire size well, but I have ruined its stability on the highway.

Cruising at 70 mph is tough. It just doesn't feel planted on the road anymore. High winds move it around, and I've got a really weird issue going around right hand bends. I simply can't take them at speed anymore without feeling like I'm going to flip it.

Was a truly terrifying and hilarious experience the first time it happened. Literally had to slow down to 60-65 and lean over the arm rest going around a right hand downhill bend in the freeway while a high top sprinter van passed me doing 70 on the same turn.

This isn't the case going around a left hand bend in the freeway. I'm no longer taking those at 80 mph but it isn't the terrifying experience that the right hand bends are.

There were issues with the sway bar during the install that the shop had to fix due to a weird noise, some loose bolt that they tightened up and the noise was gone, but now I'm having an issue on the side that the bolt was loose on and I'm wondering if they adjusted it back in a way that is now causing my freeway issues.

Any thoughts or suggestions on my issue would be appreciated.

 

[BigOleFordFan]

Well, as the saying goes:

"If ya wanna play, ya gotzta pay", hahahaha

Sorry I can't offer a solution or suggestions, but I wish you good luck on getting this issue fixed !

 

[Shutterbug57]

I figured out years ago that factory engineers have a clue. Your ride may not be a race car or a mud buggy, but it is a competent vehicle. It may be boring, but it works.

 

[HILLY]

To overstate the obvious, higher vehicle, higher center of gravity.

That being said... If you're feeling as if your steering itself is more "twitchy" and harder to control as in keeping in a straight line, the next step would be to upgrade the upper control arms (UCA's). Besides articulation, the primary goal of UCA's is to add more positive caster to the steering geometry. When a vehicle is lifted, you loose that caster and the faster you go (highway speeds), the worse the steering and balance of the car will feel. The more positive camber the more stable the vehicle will be at speed. There's not much down side to it other than how your wheels will swing or possible wheel well clearance if there is a lot of forward push plus bigger tires.. There's no added wear to the tires compared to toe and camber.

A lot of shops will not put much time and effort to get caster right, or they simply can't because they've run out of adjustment, or your cams are even seized. UCA's will help add back that lost adjustability. I've gotten in the habit in the past of after letting the suspension settle, I would first make sure the cam bolts moved (not seized), and crank the alignment as far forward as possible. When dropping off at the shop I would tell the service writer or tech to focus on getting the toe and camber to spec. Usually this had the favorable results that I would be looking for.

 

[JPOnslaught]

I figured out years ago that factory engineers have a clue. Your ride may not be a race car or a mud buggy, but it is a competent vehicle. It may be boring, but it works.

Lol my first thought was "they may have been on to something with that initial setup"

 

[JPOnslaught]

To overstate the obvious, higher vehicle, higher center of gravity.

That being said... If you're feeling as if your steering itself is more "twitchy" and harder to control as in keeping in a straight line, the next step would be to upgrade the upper control arms (UCA's). Besides articulation, the primary goal of UCA's is to add more positive caster to the steering geometry. When a vehicle is lifted, you loose that caster and the faster you go (highway speeds), the worse the steering and balance of the car will feel. The more positive camber the more stable the vehicle will be at speed. There's not much down side to it other than how your wheels will swing or possible wheel well clearance if there is a lot of forward push plus bigger tires.. There's no added wear to the tires compared to toe and camber.

A lot of shops will not put much time and effort to get caster right, or they simply can't because they've run out of adjustment, or your cams are even seized. UCA's will help add back that lost adjustability. I've gotten in the habit in the past of after letting the suspension settle, I would first make sure the cam bolts moved (not seized), and crank the alignment as far forward as possible. When dropping off at the shop I would tell the service writer or tech to focus on getting the toe and camber to spec. Usually this had the favorable results that I would be looking for.

Thanks for the detailed suggestions! Heading to the shop tomorrow to see what we can do to get things right!

 

[5280tunage]

That was going to be my first though, probably alignment issues. On my previous solid front axle vehicles (as in my user pick), bad negative caster would often contribute to the dreaded death wobble. But I wonder if you're experiencing a few issues here. For one, do you know if they replaced your sway bar end links with longer links? 3" is a lot and can throw the angles of those off as well, making them somewhat less effective, which could also be contributing to your "roll" effect in turns. Higher center of gravity could require more effective sway bars, not less. Also, are you using stock sway bars? One of the best things I've done on this thing was the sway bars, granted I hate the sound the poly bushings make vs. the old crumbly rubber ones, but I can comfortably take highway approach turns at 70-75 without feeling too nervous.

The caster settings definitely should be checked. On my old solid axles it was pretty easy to crawl under, check driveshaft angles and try to even everything out to get pretty close to 0, or something >0 depending on the lift, lots of cam adjustments. probably requires an alignment rack on these things.

 

[JPOnslaught]

That was going to be my first though, probably alignment issues. On my previous solid front axle vehicles (as in my user pick), bad negative caster would often contribute to the dreaded death wobble. But I wonder if you're experiencing a few issues here. For one, do you know if they replaced your sway bar end links with longer links? 3" is a lot and can throw the angles of those off as well, making them somewhat less effective, which could also be contributing to your "roll" effect in turns. Higher center of gravity could require more effective sway bars, not less. Also, are you using stock sway bars? One of the best things I've done on this thing was the sway bars, granted I hate the sound the poly bushings make vs. the old crumbly rubber ones, but I can comfortably take highway approach turns at 70-75 without feeling too nervous.

The caster settings definitely should be checked. On my old solid axles it was pretty easy to crawl under, check driveshaft angles and try to even everything out to get pretty close to 0, or something >0 depending on the lift, lots of cam adjustments. probably requires an alignment rack on these things.

Probably going to print out your post and take it with me lol.

 

[CoolViper777]

If you have a Android phone (Samsung or Google for example). when you open the picture, click the pencil icon on the bottom left. Then click the three vertical dots in the bottom right, and select Resize. Probably 40% would be sufficient to allow you to post a pic or two.

If you have a Windows PC, download and install MS Powertoys. Once installed, you just right click the pic and select Resize with Image Resizer. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/image-resizer

Probably going to print out your post and take it with me lol.

 

[Fastcar]

I messed up and I'm trying to figure out how to fix it.

Put on a Ready Lift 3" leveling kit combined with the Rough Country rear control arms to fit some Nitto LT285/65R20's on the ride (stock offset).

Looks amazing (i'd upload pics but the file size is too large and I can't figure out how to get it smaller).

The ride around town is fine, and overall the truck has handled the increased tire size well, but I have ruined its stability on the highway.

Cruising at 70 mph is tough. It just doesn't feel planted on the road anymore. High winds move it around, and I've got a really weird issue going around right hand bends. I simply can't take them at speed anymore without feeling like I'm going to flip it.

Was a truly terrifying and hilarious experience the first time it happened. Literally had to slow down to 60-65 and lean over the arm rest going around a right hand downhill bend in the freeway while a high top sprinter van passed me doing 70 on the same turn.

This isn't the case going around a left hand bend in the freeway. I'm no longer taking those at 80 mph but it isn't the terrifying experience that the right hand bends are.

There were issues with the sway bar during the install that the shop had to fix due to a weird noise, some loose bolt that they tightened up and the noise was gone, but now I'm having an issue on the side that the bolt was loose on and I'm wondering if they adjusted it back in a way that is now causing my freeway issues.

Any thoughts or suggestions on my issue would be appreciated.

Alignment and tire pressure!!!

 

[wakeboarder]

@5280tunage, A couple of years ago, I wrapped my poly bushings for my sway bar in pipe tape per a YouTube video. I haven’t heard them since.

 

[5280tunage]

@5280tunage, A couple of years ago, I wrapped my poly bushings for my sway bar in pipe tape per a YouTube video. I haven’t heard them since.

WHHHHAAAATTTTT? i'm assuming you mean you wrapped the bar with pipe tape where the bushings go? This sounds mighty interesting, did you remove all the existing grease ahead of time? Or did you wrap the busing with tape after it was on the bar, in between the bushing and the bracket?

 

[wakeboarder]

WHHHHAAAATTTTT? i'm assuming you mean you wrapped the bar with pipe tape where the bushings go? This sounds mighty interesting, did you remove all the existing grease ahead of time? Or did you wrap the busing with tape after it was on the bar, in between the bushing and the bracket?

I found the video. See below. I wrapped both the bar and the bushings.

Watch this before fitting Poly Bushes.

If you have squeaking Polly bushes or are contemplating fitting Polly bushes then this video is a must watch. You can contact me via email:ricksgarage916@yah...

youtu.be

 

[5280tunage]

It's so funny, when you said this, I went looking for youtubes. Found this one, but also found one where a guy is showing how to do this on a Fiero. That freakin car, death trap but fun to work on, similar to my 72' super beetle (although that wasn't a death trap, it was just fun to work on as an early teenager).

 

[4Runner2Expy]

Make sure it’s a “4 wheel” alignment. I just did the same lift, RL & RC, and the rear Rough Country adjustable tie rods had the back all out of whack. Discount Tire spent a solid 45min-hour on it getting it right.

 

[Deadman]

I hope all the other people considering these lifts read this prior to installing.............It's literally the topic that comes up daily

 

[Moeman]

I'm one of those factory suspension engineers, although perhaps "once removed" from who you really need. I did the mfg engineering part of the F150 suspension from about 2001-2009. So, I worked with the design engineers to make the suspension system manufacturable and designed the equipment to assemble it and set the front end alignment. Can't help but to learn a few things about suspension design when you're working with these guys for a few years on a project. Previous commenter had it right that there's a lot to it.

Other commenter was a bit off - upper control arm isn't there just for caster. It's half of what sets your whole geometry, establishes the king pin angle. I checked the RC lift kit and looks to have come with new UCA's to correct the caster and camber. That's probably a good thing. Otherwise, lifting the front more than the rear will decrease frame angle and hence increase your caster, and make your camber more negative. However, using the same hard points on the frame, it surely affected all of your suspension curves (caster, toe, camber - i.e. how much these change as the suspension goes through its travel). You may have noticed on a factory suspension, your UCA's, LCA's, and tie rods are all very horizontal. That means that as you jounce, the circle each of those components are moving through is almost completely in a vertical direction and minimally pushing the wheel in or out. If you now have those control components hanging at steep angles, and you've added more body roll, you could be pretty drastically changing the suspension geometry as the wheels are moving through their travel, and not just one side - both in opposite directions as one moves up and the other down. I worked on Expedition for bit as well, so know a bit about the rear, just don't recall the geometry quite as well as the front. But, maybe something similar happening there.

Anyway, getting to the point, have you called RC to ask for advice? It's possible that since you're starting at different points on your suspension curves your baseline alignment may need to be different than factory settings to better account for how things change through the travel. I don't recall what you said about the wheels, but perhaps adding some negative offset to widen the stance a bit. I lifted my F150 about 1.5" in front, +18 offset wheels. I can tell there's more resistance to steering input at highway speed, but otherwise handling is fine.

Good luck. You're not the first person I've heard complain about bad ride and handling after a lift, and quote a few different vehicles.

Edit: Ready Lift front, so no UCA's? You haven't posted alignment results, but with 3" lift I suspect you have some extra caster in there, and I have to believe you're running out of camber adjustment. For sure get the alignment checked for starters. Links on the stabilizer bar were another good suggestion. Not sure the stab bars are able to work properly hanging down that much.

Edit 2: Well heck, congrats on the interesting topic. One minor detail I failed to consider is that the UCA's are mounted at a pretty good angle. Hence, as the front jounces the upper ball joint moves rearward adding to caster, as it extends ball joint moves forward reducing caster. So, you increase caster by leveling the truck, but with UCA extended down you reduce caster. Not sure with that interaction where you end up. Bottom line, I still don't think it's a caster problem.