List of pro's and con's for gen3 usability, interior especially?

[5280tunage]

I would love over time to see what folks actually think of this new design, notably the interior. Earlier this year I extended my extended warranty so I'm really not looking to buy for another 1.5-2 yrs probably. But I personally was really let down with the new design. Maybe in practice its not so bad, but I can assure you that I never wanted the dash of my land-yacht to look like that of a mid-2000 Prius. The way I drive, I find the new steering wheel completely useless and more like flying a starfighter. Why is it so bad for this big thing to feel like you're drive a large body on frame SUV? And the new instrument clusters, what a joke IMHO. I know, I know, these are my opinions and others will agree or disagree.

But I'd love to know others' experiences. Especially those that started off feeling like I do. When I saw the new design, without choice (i.e. there's no reason we can't order these with either steering wheel type, other than Ford only wanting one part to deal with) I all but wrote it off. Not to mention some still missing mechanical stuff, and I think I just read on here that they shrank the turbos a bit... No bueno. Seriously though, what are you finding good and bad? is there ample information available for a real driver? Ample information about the vehicle, temperature, turbo pressure, electrical system (voltmeter), gear selection, all the things we've had for years. Especially without having to dig through display menus that are locked while driving? are the new display layouts customizable or pretty blah for all? Does the new center dash design make it much worse for front-backseat drivers telling you you're going too fast?

I am a bit interested to see what happens possibly with the new Dodge Ram Charger that may come out in the next couple years. Hurricane, maybe keeping the truck look and feel inside out?

I love driving mine while it works right, but I also like the look and feel of the interior. maybe they are pushing me to buy a truck, which I really don't want as a primary vehicle.

 

[dlcorbett]

Have you driven one yet? The 5th gens are hugely popular. A lot of members explained how they rented or tested one and it changed their minds on the car. Originally, I thought the interior was less attractive, however, during my test drives I did find the interior incredibly useful and its far and away the best driving expedition produced so far. I didnt end up with one but I wouldve if circumstances were dofferent.

 

[5280tunage]

No I haven't. that's why I'm asking for others' experiences first. I'm curious how the driving experience is so much better, other than some suspension geometry changes from what I've read, it's very close the same as the 2nd gen. Same undersized sway bars, same ccd. Motors essentially the same, hopefully all be it none of the phaser issues, maybe fewer leaking coolant hoses, etc. But mostly I never liked the feeling of driving the Jetsons hover car, or as I said a Prius, per the Dash. I haven't really studied the trims either. Do they actually have a HUD or is it still just a row of red LED's the window sticker called a HUD, lol? As I said, I'm at least 18mo away from buying anything, so the landscape could change a bit by then, but I wish Ford would have at least allowed some options on the new design like a traditional steering wheel.

Hey, since I swapped my current steering wheel with a raptor one, I'd be curious if something like that might still work, lol.

 

[dlcorbett]

I recently bought a 22 navigator, and I can say with all confidence, whatever changes ford made to the suspension drastically improved the ride.

 

[5280tunage]

thanks, just so i understand, what were you comparing then, a 25' expy xlt, platinum, to a 22' navi?

 

[dlcorbett]

Platinum with ccd. I drove a 22 navigator l bl back to back against a 25 expy platty max with drivers package.

 

[Moeman]

We currently have a 22 Expedition XLT. Wife is a manager in Ford engineering, I worked in there as well. Between the two of us about 40yrs with the company. Wife considered selling our 22 and getting a mgmt lease, so I went to look at one. I'll admit I am resistant to change for the sake of change. Cars evolved to what they are now because the consumers have spoken about what we like. I try to keep an open mind and can accept when something truly is better, but in the case of the 25 Expedition, I think they were just going for some shock and wow. Maybe they honestly thought the display farther forward would be better, but first time I saw it was very off-putting so I shut down the wife's suggestion.

Coincidentally, a few weeks later I ended up with a 2025 rental on a work trip. Since there were four of us and I had the biggest vehicle, I ended up driving most of the places we went together. Further, two weeks later 3 of 4 traveled again and this time ended up with a 2024 model! Talk about a nice chance to compare notes! To cut to the end, the looks of the 25 grew on most of us, except for the tailgate and tail lights. The kindest comment in the group was "it's not too bad." Now for the details:

It seems what Ford did was decided on this change to push the display forward, then had to make a series of compromises to make it work. First the steering wheel - universally hated by our group. Really makes no sense and Ford's execution exacerbates the issue. Because the diameter of the steering is variable, you also get variable torque input to the steering. You can actually feel the effort difference grabbing side vs top. The return to center instead of smoothly slipping through your hands, clunks against your palm. No comfortable place to hold it - top blocks view of dash, corners at the bends don't feel good, spokes are very thick so also doesn't feel good. The insert at the bottom makes open palm steering not feel great against your hand since it protrudes a bit. The haptic buttons have no tactile feedback as to whether you are in the top or bottom middle vs the corners. I often missed when trying to find the correct spot on the button (and I don't want to look at the dash every time to confirm where my finger is). Open palm steering ended up touching the buttons a few times and display popping up. The steering wheel is the one firm deal breaker for me. I'd sooner buy a competitor and we get good discounts on Ford vehicles. See below link for some history of the square steering wheel.

Reinventing the Wheel: A Brief History of the Square Steering Wheel

A solution in search of a problem? Perhaps, but square and rectangular steering wheels still have a long and fascinating history in the car biz. Fairly early in the development of the automobile, pioneer inventors seized upon the … Continue reading →

macsmotorcitygarage.com

Some other silly stuff with the dash - Ford claims the display location is better for visibility, you can assume for info they consider important. There are three sections of the large display - left contains speed, fuel, (mileage and some other?) very limited and can't really be changed. The center is where you can opt to put stuff that... we didn't really want up there (music? is it really that critical info?). I ended up leaving this section blank as I didn't feel any of the options were helpful. The right is reserved for the map - arguably makes some sense to put it there. But.. the display is somewhat small so we all found it took at bit longer than expected to interpret it. Further, you can't really turn off the map on the main display so now you have a map in two places! And the big screen is lower and closer, so not a great place for quick viewing. Consensus was that this whole layout was kinda dumb. There's a lot of screen, but Ford thinks you don't need any of the traditional info anymore - temp, oil, charge, etc. They're duplicating the map. So all of that screen really is quite a waste. And our group felt nobody really checks speed all that often anyway, so what's the point of this? Stick it all back where it belongs.

As most cars, buttons are minimal. We all seem to equate touchscreens with luxury, but in reality it's a way for automakers to reduce their mfg cost. VW has come out and said it was a mistake to delete buttons. Hopefully this pendulum is starting to swing the other way. It wasn't a major problem for me on the 25 Exp, but I'll definitely pick the vehicle with some buttons over one without, all things held equal.

Comparing the interior to the 2024, we all thought the 2025 had more appeal. But everything functionally is worse - shifter location, manual shift buttons, the cubby being utilized for the trailer assist knob, the center arm rest now has a valley in the middle which is uncomfortable compared to just the flat surface on the 2024. The door handle is now somewhat tucked down and harder to reach bending your wrist around the padded armrest. Really, this interior is just one folly after another. Many people comment that it works, but that's missing the point somewhat - the question should be is it an improvement and do you like it? Surgery without anesthetic also works.

Lastly I'll comment on the ride - I've read the Ford propaganda about ride improvements. All Expeditions have pretty bad ride. If you disagree, find a similarly priced X7 and take for a test drive. Ford was certainly trying to improve impact harshness (resonance you feel that takes too long to go away after hitting a bump). I couldn't really discern any improvement from ours. What I did notice was that they reduced damping - the thing felt much more bouncy than ours... like a 1982 Oldsmobile with worn out shocks. Me and the family ended up next to one on the highway and wife even commented how much it looked like it was bouncing compared to our 22 just holding firm.

So, final thoughts - the outside did grow on me, except for the back end. It feels much less responsive and nimble than our 22. Interior gives a nice impression, but is functionally a downgrade in most respects. Nearly certain that I'll never be convinced to buy one. On the other hand, I would rent one again because its so weird that I gotta admit I get a mild kick out of driving it.

One more interesting video that I mostly agree with. It's about the Navigator, but a lot of it carries over since the tech is similar.

2025 Lincoln Navigator - All the Worst New Trends in One Vessel - POV Roast

Engine: 3.5L twin-turbo V6, 440 hp, 510 lb-ftTransmission: 10-speed automatic, 4WDExterior Color (shown): Sunrise Copper MetallicInterior: Enlighten Warm Hor...

www.youtube.com

 

[5280tunage]

Thanks @Moeman. that's a fantastic review of your experience and largely mirrors exactly how I feel about the changes. I'm actually curious how much of these changes were responses to consumer saying what they want in this platform, vs. just looking at what's shiny and working in say Tesla world, and saying hey it works there, so we believe truck owners want that same thing. The buyer of a Tesla very easily could be very different from someone that loves driving a land yacht.

I recently drove another Series 2 and 3 Grand Wagoneer, and let me tell you, that ride was much better. the air suspension was also an awful lot quieter and it still had 22's so i can't say it was higher profile tires. I also feel like it's instrument cluster and the plethora of buttons was a welcome feeling for me. Granted, maybe almost too many buttons, lol. I'm a little more inline with comparing this and the GW, an X7 is a lot like an Audi wagon, just taller chassis with like an inch more of ground clearance, lol.

I actually don't mind the tailgate, but i'm also not sure it will be as functional as the Lift Glass for me, but who knows. I like the looks of the 25+, I've loved the looks of my 4th Gen. It's a sharp looking vehicle. I've loved the visibility this cabin provides, that's one thing the GW is a little worse on for me, the A pillars and D pillars seemed to hamper visibility for me more than this does.

I'll just have to see what happens over the next couple years in this product class. But again, I appreciate your full response, it's the kind of helpful response that makes these forums functional.

 

[dlcorbett]

You have to remember, comparing the expedition ride to an x7 is very unfair as its a uni body with air springs, which will ride better than all bof suvs. The grand wagoneer uses air springs, and is tuned to be slightly plusher than regular wagoneer. I dont even think any jeep has 22in wheels without the air springs. The gms and jeep with air springs will always feel better than the fords using coils. Without air springs, wagoneer does not ride better and neither do the gms. Lastly, when I did a back to back, the trucks I drove were equipped with ccd. I've heard earlier on the 25s without ccd didnt feel much different than the 24s on static coils. After owning my 22 nav for a cpl of weeks, to me, the 25s felt way more isolated and less harsh than the 22s, though admittedly, my 22 nav is less harsh than my 20 nav.

 

[5280tunage]

You have to remember, comparing the expedition ride to an x7 is very unfair as its a uni body with air springs, which will ride better than all bof suvs. The grand wagoneer uses air springs, and is tuned to be slightly plusher than regular wagoneer. I dont even think any jeep has 22in wheels without the air springs. The gms and jeep with air springs will always feel better than the fords using coils. Without air springs, wagoneer does not ride better and neither do the gms. Lastly, when I did a back to back, the trucks I drove were equipped with ccd. I've heard earlier on the 25s without ccd didnt feel much different than the 24s on static coils. After owning my 22 nav for a cpl of weeks, to me, the 25s felt way more isolated and less harsh than the 22s, though admittedly, my 22 nav is less harsh than my 20 nav.

Agreed, kind of why I said it was a lot like an Audi Allroad just larger. I find it interesting Stellantis is killing the base Wagoneer model, and focusing solely on the GW. Apparently that decision included some price reductions on the GW but I haven't looked into it much. A lot can change in 18-24 months for me. But solely on interior and cabin layout, if I had to choose today it would be a GW or Yukon. Most likely the GW for two reasons, the powertrain and until this Expi, there's always been a Jeep in the garage.

 

[dlcorbett]

I actually looked at the grand wagoneer b&p. I think all they did was make it like the grand cherokee in name. Its priced between the mainstream and luxury offerings, with the base in mid trims being somewhat competitive to the mainstream, while the summit and summit reserve start at entry level lux suv pricing...about 95k. My wife could not get over the looks of the current gw, and we cannot get comfy in a gm product due to harder seats and no adjustable pedals. I actually like the expy Interior alot, and appreciate how the layout and digital interface is less busy than the others.

 

[5280tunage]

I actually looked at the grand wagoneer b&p. I think all they did was make it like the grand cherokee in name. Its priced between the mainstream and luxury offerings, with the base in mid trims being somewhat competitive to the mainstream, while the summit and summit reserve start at entry level lux suv pricing...about 95k. My wife could not get over the looks of the current gw, and we cannot get comfy in a gm product due to harder seats and no adjustable pedals. I actually like the expy Interior alot, and appreciate how the layout and digital interface is less busy than the others.

Thanks, I think this just further exemplifies this is going to be one of those very polarizing changes, very personal for each. Appreciate your thoughts on it.

 

[Moeman]

You have to remember, comparing the expedition ride to an x7 is very unfair as its a uni body with air springs, which will ride better than all bof suvs. The grand wagoneer uses air springs, and is tuned to be slightly plusher than regular wagoneer. I dont even think any jeep has 22in wheels without the air springs. The gms and jeep with air springs will always feel better than the fords using coils. Without air springs, wagoneer does not ride better and neither do the gms. Lastly, when I did a back to back, the trucks I drove were equipped with ccd. I've heard earlier on the 25s without ccd didnt feel much different than the 24s on static coils. After owning my 22 nav for a cpl of weeks, to me, the 25s felt way more isolated and less harsh than the 22s, though admittedly, my 22 nav is less harsh than my 20 nav.

Unfair why? Similar price point, size (Exp has much more interior space, granted), towing capacity, powertrain. How they care to execute the product is up to them, whether uni-body or body on frame. Heck, my 2016 F150 is the same architecture and rides better than our Expedition. I'm no NVH expert, but I think they have these vehicles so rigid now that they've pushed all the resonant frequencies into a range that's very offensive to a passenger. Hydro-mounts only go so far in damping them out.

 

[dlcorbett]

Its unfair because no bof bodied suv rides as well as a similarly sized unibody, and thats industry wide, not just large luxury vehicles. Also, the x7 is closer in size, capacities to a large crossover like a durango or telluride than an Escalade or expy. Its almost comparison by necessity because there is no large European bof suvs with 3 rows(the g class is only 2 row). I understand at that price point, most shoppers will feel different, but to expect your suv based on a pickup and tows 9k lbs to ride like a suv thats based on the flagship lux sedan is kinda wild. Now if your comparing the ride to its contemporaries with air springs, its fair game because ford could've offered air springs since it used to offer it and the aviator has them. I dont have a pick up to compare to my nav. My 18 expy would ride like a pickup sometimes. However, my current 22 nav rides pretty well, better than our 22 cx9 outside fords ****** framework for the 4th gens.

 

[Moeman]

Its unfair because no bof bodied suv rides as well as a similarly sized unibody, and thats industry wide, not just large luxury vehicles. Also, the x7 is closer in size, capacities to a large crossover like a durango or telluride than an Escalade or expy. Its almost comparison by necessity because there is no large European bof suvs with 3 rows(the g class is only 2 row). I understand at that price point, most shoppers will feel different, but to expect your suv based on a pickup and tows 9k lbs to ride like a suv thats based on the flagship lux sedan is kinda wild. Now if your comparing the ride to its contemporaries with air springs, its fair game because ford could've offered air springs since it used to offer it and the aviator has them. I dont have a pick up to compare to my nav. My 18 expy would ride like a pickup sometimes. However, my current 22 nav rides pretty well, better than our 22 cx9 outside fords ****** framework for the 4th gens.

No harm in disagreeing, but I think your sympathies are mis-placed. I keep in touch with a lot of good friends at Ford. A while ago one told me they were studying a uni-body Expedition sized SUV. Not surprised it never happened since it would likely need to be a whole new platform (expensive!) and need to be integrated into some other mfg facility (Exp volumes not enough to sustain an entire plant 5d 2 shifts). So, in the interest of profit - they keep it as BOF, building it in KY Truck Plant sharing a frame line with Superduty, and common parts with F150 (I assume, used to be the case when I was working on them). That's beside the point since I don't really buy the argument that you can't make a BOF ride well. I also did a short stint at BMW. They have their own issues, but I can tell you the amount of work they put into tuning, the amount of money they spend on sound deadening and vibration damping, the amount of rework per vehicle to make them perfect, is unreal. And you'll love this, friend of mine that works in vehicle dynamics at Ford (I've brought up the vibration question to him many times over the years) said his group was asked on Superduty (? I think) whether they preferred a c-channel or fully boxed frame. They voted hands down for the c-channel because they're so much more forgiving for NVH tuning. Rejected, mostly because marketing needed to advertise the fully boxed frame. Such is the story he told me. Sorry, know too much from the inside to cut them any slack. Cost / benefit analysis for them. If it doesn't pay off, they're not going to do it.