No start, no crank '01 XLT

[Just Jephph]

Hey there,

New to the forum. Hoping someone is able to guide me to a solution with a no start, no crank situation with my 2001 Expedition XLT 4.6L 2WD. It started out as an intermittent no start, no crank until it just wouldn't start at all. My skill level is low-to-mid range DIY ability. I am mostly a parts changer with limited diagnostic knowledge.

Here are the steps I have been through so far:

-Brand new battery.
-New terminal connector on the negative side battery cable.
-Removed alternator and had it bench tested. Tested good.
-New serpentine/ drive belt.
-Removed starter. Had it bench tested at two different parts stores. Tested good both places.
-Replaced solenoid/relay on the engine compartment firewall.
-Tested voltage to ignition wire that connects to solenoid relay. Getting 12V when ignition is engaged.
-Removed starter a second time. Tested the solenoid on the starter. Motor extends and spins.
-Took the starter to a rebuild shop. They tested the voltage. Tested good. Took it apart and looked at the brushes and internal components. Everything looked fine. Did not smell burnt.
-Reinstalled the starter. Tested the ignition wire that attaches to the solenoid for voltage. Tested 12V when the ignition is engaged.
-Shifter has a lot of "play" in it. Did a test of trying to start the car in Neutral. IT STARTED! Twice in a row.
-Replaced the shifter tube, plunger and plastic bushings.
-Reassembled the car. IT DIDN'T START.
-Removed the after market car alarm and reconnected the wires with heat shrink tubing.
-Tested my new battery. CCAs were low from sitting around so I put it on a trickle charger. CCAs now test 875 out of 850.
-IT WON'T START!! No crank at all.

Now there is a rhythmic clicking from what appears to be the center of the dash behind the radio area. Maybe down below that. I can't really tell. I disconnected the battery to reset everything. Now when I put the key in the ignition and turn it to the run position, the panel goes dark before I can even attempt to turn it over. I was hoping to try a code reader and see if it might produce any results but no luck.

The last thing I can think of is battery cables. I don't know how to test those.

Doe anyone out there have any additional suggestions to offer? It would be much appreciated.

-Jeff-

 

[Billme]

I can’t help myself, but I also gave Grok your problem and this is what it said:

https://x.com/i/grok/share/nU2uYy2E5IawsNcfEJSnVvx0q

 

[Yupster Dog]

The last thing I can think of is battery cables. I don't know how to test those.

Voltage Drop Test, very easy to do with a digital volt meter.
You can check the positive and the ground side with this test.

Should always test this first because it will show you that power is getting to the components.

More than 50% of the time the problems come from a lifted ground. Check your grounds thoroughly.

 

[Just Jephph]

Thank you for the suggestions! I will try those tests this weekend and report back what I find. Much appreciated!

-Jeff-

 

[Just Jephph]

Hi again,

Just got done doing the voltage drop test on the positive and negative battery cables. Some interesting results:

The negative side-Reading was a stable 2.5 when the cables were attached before attempting to turn over the ignition. When the ignition was engaged, the voltage went up into the 13s and then dropped down to 0.1. I believe this reading is normal.

The positive side-Reading took a while to stabilize in the 1.333/1.317 range. Once the ignition was engaged, the volts changed to 10.9 with a slow climb into the 11.17 range before the ignition was disengaged. I don't believe those readings are normal from what I've seen online.

I have videos of both starting attempts.

The rhythmic ticking resumed after the failed attempt to start. The clicking is coming from the remote keyless/ anti-theft module mounted under the dash. When I unplug the one harness in the attached picture, the clicking changes to the relay box on the front panel. Relay #2 shown in the other picture. The manual says it controls the PCM among other things. When I plug the harness back into the keyless entry module, the ticking transfers from relay #2 back to the keyless entry module.

I believe the keyless entry/ anti-theft module is the unit original to the vehicle. I can't seem to locate the one remaining key fab we received when we purchased the vehicle back in 2003 from Carmax.


I'm still stuck and not sure what to do next.

-Jeff-

 

[DieselMonk]

Sounds like a PATS issue or a worn key to me. Or the car thinks it’s in a gear like Drive.

 

[MesaGuy]

OK. Total shot in the dark (I have one, and live its travels, so there is dim light of hope.)

Try THIS: As a test. Shift the vehicle into NEUTRAL before starting.
e.g. Key IN. Turn to 1st detent (but don't start it). Foot on Brake. Shift to Neutral. THEN CRANK IT.
If it starts, I will explain, and you can fix it with your resume.
If it doesn't start, its not the thing I was thinking of, and let's not bother everyone.

BTW, If this does start, then this is a RELIABLE starting method until you get around to fixing the problem.

To foreshadow in short form:
If it starts with the above "start from neutral" procedure, the one of two things has happened. Given that you say you live in Roseville, CA, The first is far more likely because Roseville, CA has pretty decent weather. But either can cause the issue.

1. The shifter linkage is "loose". (There is a nut that classically (well known) comes lose (or even falls off sometimes, then needs replace) that causes the not start problem because the "In Park (or neutral) start interlock" is not engaged because the computer doesn't think you are in Park (even though the trans might be, or might not be).
2. Or similar problem (but rare in CA) not so rare back east. You Transmission shift position switch (under the car, on the transmission, pretty easy to switch out) is bad. In CA, these things never fail. But back East, in bad-weather living, and road salt and snow, they fail quite often. But every once is a while, a CA unit goes bad, and we sing a song for its travels to "good part that lasted 25 years+" part heaven.

 

[Kevmobile]

Post videos mentioned to YouTube

I recommend you check your frame ground from the battery to frame and ground from engine block to frame.

I dont know where those are, browse the forum. The reason why I say that is because the starter grounds thru the engine.

 

[tack87]

OK. Total shot in the dark (I have one, and live its travels, so there is dim light of hope.)

Try THIS: As a test. Shift the vehicle into NEUTRAL before starting.
e.g. Key IN. Turn to 1st detent (but don't start it). Foot on Brake. Shift to Neutral. THEN CRANK IT.
If it starts, I will explain, and you can fix it with your resume.
If it doesn't start, its not the thing I was thinking of, and let's not bother everyone.

BTW, If this does start, then this is a RELIABLE starting method until you get around to fixing the problem.

With a loose shifter I believe this could be the problem, been through this one.

 

[MesaGuy]

Your "intermittent no start" also fits #1 above. That's how it happened to me. Wouldn't start "sometimes". No crank. Did some research, replaced the Transmission shift position "sensor" (its just a switch) on the transmission. That is where the shifter cable on the column ultimately leads to. A "matching" electrical switch for "P R N D 2 1" positions under the car, on the side of the transmission. It is basically a rotary switch that rides the mechanical shift linkage rod and lever that physically switches the transmission to gear or park or neutral.

I changed mine out with a brand new one, "knew" that would fix it (symptoms matched perfectly), and it didn't fix it... (And now I have an extra transmission shift sensor/switch, because the old one was perfectly fine. And there is a way to test them, I was just too lazy to do it before buying (mostly too in a hurry for a solution to do that).

So more youtube.... and the "well known" loose-linkage problem was identified. Also fits the symptoms. And on ANY Gen1 (1997-2002) at this point, this problem fits. 'Cause they are old, and there has been lots and lots of time for the nut to work lose. What happens is: The shifter mechanism you see (lever, P R N D 2 1) sign, connects to a rod in the steering column. The rod has plastic bushings (for another problem and story), and at the bottom of that rod (under the dash), there is a arm that attaches to the rod. The arm is held on by two nuts. The nuts work lose over time, slowly (very slowly) getting looser and looser (every time you use the shifter lever). Until finally, they get too lose. When that happens, there is too much play in the system. Depending on how well calibrated the shifter switch on the transmission was set, you can get the situation where the transmission really is in Park (Physically, on the trans shift rod), but the shift switch doesn't think so. The switch under the car. So, not in park or neutral, the car will not start. (It thinks you are in Reverse, it won't turn over.)

If you shift it all the way to Neutral. (And it "feels" like its clicking/locking in, it probably is.) That is the shift rod hitting neutral. Well the whole linkage "works better" in that direction of travel. (The cable is being stretched, rather than compressed as you shift from P to R to N to D to 2 to 1) and the true rod shift, and the switch shift agree instead of disagree. So, if you shift to Neutral, the switch ALSO think you are in Neutral most of the time (95%) when its "just loose". And so, then the car will start from neutral, because its "Park or Neutral" for the interlock.

To "fix it". Just tighten the bolts on the shift rod lower arm, under the dash.
Here is an excellent youtube video on the subject:

2001 Ford Expedition Shifter Linkage: Won't Shift Into Park

My 2001 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer Model wouldn't shift into park when I got to work this morning. During break, I put the shifter link back together. Come ...

www.youtube.com

I had even checked this (not well enough) and found my bolts in place, and thought that not the problem. (But I was wrong. When just "lose", they seem tight by hand or even casually with a bad test on ratchet. So, get under there and and tighten them down. Of course you need a T30 Torx socket for your ratchet. Or a T30 insert, to an insert to HEX piece, that you can put another socket onto. (A Frankenstein's monster T30...)
But that's the ticket. Good chance its just that....

If it starts in Neutral, definitely that.

 

[Just Jephph]

Sounds like a PATS issue or a worn key to me. Or the car thinks it’s in a gear like Drive.

Diesel,
What is a PATS issue? Could you please elaborate?

 

[DieselMonk]

Passive Anti Theft System = PATS

 

[MesaGuy]

Symptoms fit that the car thinks its in "Reverse". (e.g. its in gear, so it won't start). Given the intermittent approach of the symptom, I think its the loose shift linkage, which has too much slop in it. It feels OK, but its not. I know its hard to believe, but look at that youtube video i posted, and tighten up the two T30 Torx screws that hold the shift arm onto the shift rod in the column. Once tight, at the other end of the cable, the shift position sensor (switch) will work correctly again, and the car won't think its in reverse, when its in park, and it will start right up. And, the best "test" for the condition is to shift it into neutral, and start it from there. The "off"-ness of the linkage effects the Neutral position much less, so it will start in Neutral while it won't start it in what is supposed to be Park. But it will start in Neutral.

 

[MesaGuy]

To figure out of PATS could be involved, one hacky way to test it follows, but you must have two keys for the vehicle. Put one in, turn it, try to start. When it doesn't start. Then take the second key and hold it up to the bottom of the key cylinder area (just under key slot, up against the plastic.) And then turn the first key again. Occasionally, the plastic retainer ring on the Key sensor breaks, and the sensor (which is still in there) falls out of position, and usually falls with gravity "down". Its still wired up, its just out position to sense the key in cylinder. If you take a second key, and push up against the plastic, while turning the one in the cylinder, if the sensor is out of position, it will pick up the second key, and then "think" that one is in the cylinder, and it will then fire the engine when you crank it.

Diesel is correct, could be that. But I still think its a lose shift linkage because you said it was "happening once in a while", and then a bit more often, and then it was a "hard" no-start.

Really simple test, just shift into Neutral, and then start it.

 

[Knothapnn]

I had a similar issue and chased many things, what has helped me is disconnecting the cruise control. This video explains better. https://youtu.be/bmKSrqRrPLc?si=zyTKlI5x5PRjs1iw

 

[Just Jephph]

Post videos mentioned to YouTube

I recommend you check your frame ground from the battery to frame and ground from engine block to frame.

I dont know where those are, browse the forum. The reason why I say that is because the starter grounds thru the engine.

Kevmobile- Here are the YouTube links:

Negative battery cable-https://youtube.com/shorts/lmj-MAWSnoM?feature=share

Positive battery cable-https://youtube.com/shorts/7Z0tQuAePc4?feature=share

Sorry it took me a while to get them loaded. I was out of town for the week.

I'll do my best to track down the frame ground as you suggested.

 

[Just Jephph]

Your "intermittent no start" also fits #1 above. That's how it happened to me. Wouldn't start "sometimes". No crank. Did some research, replaced the Transmission shift position "sensor" (its just a switch) on the transmission. That is where the shifter cable on the column ultimately leads to. A "matching" electrical switch for "P R N D 2 1" positions under the car, on the side of the transmission. It is basically a rotary switch that rides the mechanical shift linkage rod and lever that physically switches the transmission to gear or park or neutral.

I changed mine out with a brand new one, "knew" that would fix it (symptoms matched perfectly), and it didn't fix it... (And now I have an extra transmission shift sensor/switch, because the old one was perfectly fine. And there is a way to test them, I was just too lazy to do it before buying (mostly too in a hurry for a solution to do that).

So more youtube.... and the "well known" loose-linkage problem was identified. Also fits the symptoms. And on ANY Gen1 (1997-2002) at this point, this problem fits. 'Cause they are old, and there has been lots and lots of time for the nut to work lose. What happens is: The shifter mechanism you see (lever, P R N D 2 1) sign, connects to a rod in the steering column. The rod has plastic bushings (for another problem and story), and at the bottom of that rod (under the dash), there is a arm that attaches to the rod. The arm is held on by two nuts. The nuts work lose over time, slowly (very slowly) getting looser and looser (every time you use the shifter lever). Until finally, they get too lose. When that happens, there is too much play in the system. Depending on how well calibrated the shifter switch on the transmission was set, you can get the situation where the transmission really is in Park (Physically, on the trans shift rod), but the shift switch doesn't think so. The switch under the car. So, not in park or neutral, the car will not start. (It thinks you are in Reverse, it won't turn over.)

If you shift it all the way to Neutral. (And it "feels" like its clicking/locking in, it probably is.) That is the shift rod hitting neutral. Well the whole linkage "works better" in that direction of travel. (The cable is being stretched, rather than compressed as you shift from P to R to N to D to 2 to 1) and the true rod shift, and the switch shift agree instead of disagree. So, if you shift to Neutral, the switch ALSO think you are in Neutral most of the time (95%) when its "just loose". And so, then the car will start from neutral, because its "Park or Neutral" for the interlock.

To "fix it". Just tighten the bolts on the shift rod lower arm, under the dash.
Here is an excellent youtube video on the subject:

2001 Ford Expedition Shifter Linkage: Won't Shift Into Park

My 2001 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer Model wouldn't shift into park when I got to work this morning. During break, I put the shifter link back together. Come ...

www.youtube.com

I had even checked this (not well enough) and found my bolts in place, and thought that not the problem. (But I was wrong. When just "lose", they seem tight by hand or even casually with a bad test on ratchet. So, get under there and and tighten them down. Of course you need a T30 Torx socket for your ratchet. Or a T30 insert, to an insert to HEX piece, that you can put another socket onto. (A Frankenstein's monster T30...)
But that's the ticket. Good chance its just that....

If it starts in Neutral, definitely that.

Mesa-Great suggestion. I performed this test a while ago and it did start in Neutral. I replaced the shifter tube (Dorman 905-102), the plunger inside the tube and the plastic bushings under the two clamps. I used plenty of Lucas Red and Tacky grease on the inside of the shifter tube around the plunger. Plus, I used blue Loc-Tite on the T-30 linkage bolts at the rear of the shifter tube when transferring to the replacement. Everything appears to be tight and in the proper position.

Once everything was reassembled, it wouldn't start at all--in Drive or Neutral. I even tore the dash apart a second time to verify I attached everything properly. It was at this point the clicking/ ticking started after each "no start". The PATS issue makes sense. I am currently in the process of trying to locate the original key fab for the factory alarm. It is MIA. I do have both original keys so I will definitely try the key/ ignition suggestion from your later post.

I'm also going to climb under the car again and verify the position of the neutral safety switch on the transmission to make sure it is lined up.

I'll report back what I find.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[CaperCanadian]

A total shot in the dark,, I had an similar problem, intermittent starting. Chased down everything I could, took the dash apart to find the clicking that you heard as well, wasn't it. Turns out it was the wires in the driver's kick panel,, the junction block, the wires were severely corroded. .. Like I said shot in the dark,, you tried everything else..

 

[MesaGuy]

Just Jephyn wrote:
"I performed this test a while ago and it did start in Neutral. I replaced the shifter tube (Dorman 905-102), the plunger inside the tube and the plastic bushings under the two clamps. I used plenty of Lucas Red and Tacky grease on the inside of the shifter tube around the plunger. Plus, I used blue Loc-Tite on the T-30 linkage bolts at the rear of the shifter tube when transferring to the replacement. Everything appears to be tight and in the proper position."

HMM OK. Sounds physical, (even if not my two suspected bolts), and it is probably not PATS. If it was PATS, it would not start in NEUTRAL. (It would not start at all, ever). So, you can forget about all the PATS concerns, except for a broken/fallen down sensor, that's still a possibility. But I guess I would (try and start it in Neutral, every time it doesn't start in Park). If every time it doesn't start it in Park, it starts in Neutral, then its not PATS. If it will not start in PARK and Neutral (together, most of the time), then it could still be PATS.

My BEST GUESS, at this point, hearing what you "DID DO" and replaced (all good things).
e.g. shift tube, bushing, linkage control arm (T30's holding it in).... is... One of two things most likely on the physical side. Both pretty common (common enough).

1. The cable itself is broken. (They break all the time.) Where they break is under the dash, at the universal joint (plastic, bad design). There is this joint that is designed so that (in theory) you can drop the steering column down without having to disconnect the shifter cable from the ball pin that is on the linkage arm. I say in theory, because it never works for the intended purpose. They are made of some type of medium-duty plastic, that is not glass filled. The plastic "sweats" its plasticizer over time and the inside piece of the u-joint gets sticky and the outside piece of the u-joint gets sticky, and they essentially stick to each other, almost "weak-welding" in the position they are in with the steering column up. (This is why I always disconnect the shifter cable from the ball pin now, no matter what), even though you are not supposed to have to do that. The whole point of the u-joint is to allow the plastic bits to pivot at the joint as you drop the column, without having to disconnect the cable from the ball pin, but the u-joints basically doesn't work. It welds itself in place, and then when you drop the column, the plastic snaps because its essentially "welded itself stuck", so then it just snaps, instead of rotating like a u-joint is supposed to. When you raise the column back up, it is not always obvious that linkage cable has broken in this plastic region. Sometimes it works 1/2-way (which might be your case.)

2. The Sensor switch under the vehicle is (bad), or (more likely) misadjusted. The adjustment part is pretty subtle (I think.) Get a really good LED light under there. Chock the tires, set the e-brake, and put the transmission into neutral on the shifter. On the white collar that surrounds the transmission shifter rod, there is an alignment mark. Super hard to see unless you have a bright light under there with you (or you have young-eagle eyes). The orientation of the Neutral Safety switch (the transmission position sensor) varies substantially on different models and years of Expy and F-150. The 4x4 is different than the 4x2, and the 4R70 and the 4R100 can be different. But they ALL have the two marks show in this video, one on the collar, one on the black body, and it works the same in all of them, but your orientation could be flipped, etc. It is EASY to be fooled on the while collar by the dark square detent on that side. (I thought that was the alignment mark my first time, and its NOT!) The alignment mark is really hard to actually see on the white collar, unless you shine a bright light on there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhyVOgm9N3I Good video on the topic.

The key to it is getting transmission in Neutral (while under the car.) If unsure, then put it in Park at the shifter upstairs, then go back under, and see which way its oriented, and push it all the way in that direction, to make sure its in PARK. Then shift two "clicks" (Reverse, then Neutral) to get Neutral. (Reminder: Chock the tires). In Neutral, then you then loosen the two 5/16 mount bolts. Those bolts are actually in "channel holes", so the black body can be rotated, while the white collar (keyed to the shaft) stays in place, and thus you can move the black body and its alignment mark to match the white alignment mark. Often, the thing is misaligned, or badly misaligned (to the detent mark (which gets a black dirt/oil/grime spot on the white) rather than to the actual alignment mark which is practically invisible). Being off just a bit.... The car will not start in PARK, but it will be shifted into the proper gear. And often will start in neutral. When properly aligned, then tighten the two 5/16 bolts back up. Snug+ I think its 20 ft. lbs torque spec.

Most likely, its going to be one of these two things. Other possibilities exist. (PATS, sure, but unlikely if starting in Neutral), bad ignition switch (unlikely if starting in neutral), ignition system grounds (always on Fords), but unlikely if starting in Neutral). The park relay (in the dash, under the oval-dash cover), unlikely if starts in neutral. Kick panel (driver's side) wiring. (Unlikely if starting in neutral).

Most likely is a "linkage issue" (and you have attack a bunch of those, BUT, you have also adjusted that system, making it highly suspect). The two most common linkage issues are the loose T30's (not you), and the broken plastic on the shifter cable (maybe). And the then there is the alignment on the transmission sensor. And that could happen with your situation. (It could have been misadjusted (always), but been "just close enough" to work. And then one big bump, and the sensor shift ever so slightly (1/10th a millimeter) on the channel mount screws hold that sensor in place (or rock hit the sensor, or a board), and then....

 

[Just Jephph]

Mesa-After a long hiatus I was able to check out your suggestions. The cable appears to be intact and not broken. It shifts the neutral safety switch under the car. I climbed under the car to verify the the switch was correctly aligned in neutral. To my DIY eyes, it looked like the two lines matched. If the lines are off by a fraction of a millimeter, I can't see it (two photos from slightly different angles attached).

This is the point where I feel confident I've tried everything I know how to do and it's time to bring in professionals. I'm throwing in the towel on this one and will have it towed off to a mechanic for expert diagnosis, including a successful repair hopefully.

I will update this post once I find out what actually gets this vehicle running with the hopes it will help someone else someday. All the suggestions and time spent walking me through possible issues are much appreciated.

-JJ-