Remanufactured Engine

[BillAlex]

Just dropped a 5.4L 3V from Promar that I bought for $2,999. I did a ton of research and nothing but horror stories or rolling the dice at buying a used engine from a Junk Yard. Promar puts out one hell of an engine and if you look into the equipment it takes to rebuild one of these beast correctly, you realize it can easily take a quarter of a million dollars worth of equipment to reman an engine. The biggest selling point that Promar has is using OEM Ford phasers and timing chain. It seems that the 5.4L 3V is notorious for eating chain guides, clogging up oil pumps and pretty much trashing an engine if let go to long.

In addition to dropping 3 Grand on a Reman engine, you need to invest another Thousand in preventative stuff when it's all apart. I would also go with Ford OEM on things like Water Pump, upper and lower Radiator hoses, Serpentine Belt, Heater Hose, new updated triple platinum plugs, Variable Timing Chain Solenoids, etc. I dropped a new Radiator as what the hell, it's probably at least 10 years old by the time you rebuild an engine, so spend some extra time and money making sure the cooling is up to par. It's actually cheaper to buy a new radiator from Rock Auto than it is to flush one at the local radiator shop. Some go for the Heater core but mine looked good so I went with new OEM heater hoses. Fluids of course need to be replaced as well as Thermostat. All these things add up not to mentioned last minute gaskets that seem to have walked away. No one tells you about the extra stuff you should be doing when you order out a Reman engine.

If you decide to go local machine shops for your rebuild, be very careful. I checked with our local Better Business Bureau and was shocked at the number of complaints that found "used" pistons or rods in the rebuild engine. Some of these guys try to save a buck and end up putting back anything that didn't break or was shinning. Some very large customers like U-Haul actually tore a brand new reman apart because to many engines were failing. They found only two new pistons and rods in a 8 cylinder engine and that was the end of that contract. No matter what you do or who you go with, get references of "happy customers". Mandatory!

Finally, Engine R&R is not rocket science. I had my toilet clogged over the week end and the Plummer charged me $250. and it took him less than 15 minutes to unclog it. I was a little pissed and told him I am a CPA with a Masters Degree and I only charge $200 per hour. He told me "yeah, I know. When I was a CPA, I only made $200 an hour also". No matter what these guys tell you, changing an engine out can only go one way. You turn a wrench in one direction and not much difference between MAC tools, Snap on and Craftsman except the price of the tools. Book rate calls for about 15 hours give or take a couple and I find it difficult to be paying the kid we used to pull down his pants in school $120 per hour (that works out to $240,000 per year for a 40 hr. work week!). Shop around. You are not going to convince me that a high school drop out is worth a Quarter of a Million dollars per year. (Unless of course, his name is Bill Gates). I can assure you that a $40 to $50 per hour (shop rate) engine will run just as well as a dealership mechanic that charges $120. per hour shop rate. Sure, there are bad people in every profession but I have found some really good ones on Craigslist. Don't sell them short if they quote you $35 to $40 per hour. Did you ever think of how much a Dealership mechanic makes that gets 30 to 35% of the bill? Some of these guys work week-ends on the side and charge much less than you would pay at your local garage. Don't be afraid to look around. My mechanic, who loves me during tax season, quoted $2,200 in labor to R&R a Reman Engine. I paid $700 to a mechanic that worked out of his home and has 17 years experience with lots of letters from "happy customers". Shop it. That alone can pay for a first class Reman as opposed to a cobbled together one with used parts.

 

[BillAlex]

No offense to you mechanics out there making a Quarter of a Million dollars per year! God Bless you. It's America after all.

 

[Boostedbus]

Auto mechanics have to be plumbers,electricians,HVAC techs,computer techs,and think like mechanical engineers. Not to mention how much the industry changes every day because of technology and they constantly have to go to school to stay up on the latest systems. I have the utmost respect for them because I used to be a mechanic many years ago and know it’s not a easy way to make a living . They also often get looked down upon and referred to as grease monkeys,but a good one is worth and earns every cent he makes. You have to remember that most people don’t want to pay for diagnosing problems but just for fixing them. Diagnosing is sometimes worth more than the fix.

 

[BillAlex]

I think there are two sides to every story and you certainly make a valid point Boostedbus. It is indeed not an easy job. It also is not an easy job for some on social security who have to wait to pay for something as simple as a tune up or some single mom needing her car to get to work. In the old days, the garages had to keep an enormous inventory on site. One or more of just about every radiator hose out there, different shocks to fit almost every car and a wide range of oils, lubes and additives. For this, they marked the price up 30 to 40%. They had a sizeable investment in inventory, so therefor a reasonable return on their investment was in order. The problem with todays mechanic is marking up the parts 30 to 40% when they have the parts delivered by Autozone, Napa or other Chinese aftermarket guru's. Think about that for one second. Instead of charging you $90 per hour shop time, now add on 30 to 40% mark up on parts (we all know you can buy at least 30-40% off at Rock auto) and parts usually equal to or greater than the cost of the labor, works out to be about $135 to $150 per hour worked on your car.

So I have to disagree with you and that is the average mechanic out there no longer fixes anything, he simply orders out a new part and replaces it. Have you heard of a starter being rebuilt lately? How about a compressor bearing on an A/C? Nope, they replace the whole unit and charge you $1,200 for what a $12 bearing would fix easy. Diagnostics became much easier by just plugging in a computer and take a look at the code. Is that worth $90? Let your conscience by your guide.

I certainly do not wish to rain on anybody's parade. I do however want to point out that there are alternatives for getting "ripped off". Like anything, I believe in due diligence. Take your time. Find the best deal. Look for the best parts or at least what you can afford on your budget. The purpose of this forum is not to put down the Auto Repair Industry as God knows there are tons of those guys on this forum that are helpful in guiding DIY fixes. They offer their services and advice for free and it makes this place a friendly and fun place to be. We also share our experiences, good or bad. We offer opinions, often times not necessarily the right ones or the only ones, but what has worked for us. Take it, use it if you like or simply discard it and move on to the next thread.

 

[Boostedbus]

How about when someone takes a car to you and says it got such and such a noise so please fix it. So you spend all day test driving it and putting on and off the lift chasing the noise and pulling your hair out just to find out it’s a loose shock or something of the sort. Do you just charge them to tighten the shock? If you charge them the man hours you really have in it , do they bad mouth you and say you’re a crook?Some jobs make up for the many that you don’t make anything on.

 

[5150 pops]

No offense to you mechanics out there making a Quarter of a Million dollars per year! God Bless you. It's America after all.

That "shop rate" is NOT to be confused with the ACTUAL pay rate the employee/mechanic is being paid. Not even close, whether the mechanic is paid hourly or more likely percentage or commission.

That rate includes the use of the shop, and all the items the shop has in order to assist the mechanic. No - not hand tools, those are typically owned by the mechanic (some are financed through the dealership via payroll deduction, but that's it as far as dealer input).
All the test equipment, brake lathes, 4 post lifts, parts washers, etc. either have consumables, finite life, or both, that must be accounted for over time.

I'm a high school graduate, but also a two time college dropout, who took and passed A.P. Physics, Calculus, and Engrish while a Senior, back in 1988. As you said Gates didn't finish, but if you had a problem with your computer and he was offering to help, would you pass? Diploma or Degree doesn't guarantee success, surely it helps, and doesn't necessarily prevent, but the same can be said of those, who don't obtain and have a clearly defined focus. Sadly, I not telling you I'm one of those with that focus.

I used to work for a company started by a man who didn't finish the 9th grade, yet he managed to build a multi million dollar group of companies starting from a little town of Dewey, OK, eventually opening locations in Glen Allen, VA and Birmingham, AL. Granted some of that later successful growth was aided by his two College educated sons, though by the time they were in the business, Mr. Kimrey was already a multi millionaire.

 

[BillAlex]

The discussion or thread was not intended to raise the blood pressure on those in the Industry, but to offer an alternative to shop rates. There are many on this site that can take a 5.4L 3V, tear it apart on their coffee table at home and do an excellent job. There are others that need a little help and this forum is great for that purpose. My hats off to the mechanics that take the time to help others who are confused and can't figure it out. Then there are those who have been with a garage for twenty years and have a wonderful relationship with their mechanics.

I have read threads where some have bought a cheap engine at a junk yard, put it in themselves and had it run forever. Others were not so lucky and their engines developed the same symptoms that were the cause of them replacing the engine in the first place. I have seen where people go to their local machine shop, spend thousands and find out later that only a few of the pistons were actually new and that the shop had installed "used" parts back into a freshly rebuilt engine. Personally, I like to read about things like this to make an informed decision. Finally, where is the best place to get a reman engine? I shared my experience with you. I like Promar but I am sure there are many other fine shops out there and companies that rebuild them or remanufacture engines. Some have used Rock Auto, others have gone to Autozone. Even your local dealerships use local rebuild shops and call it a "crate" engine.

The discussions on shop hourly rate is just a guideline for some that may not be familiar with options. If every single shop in America uses the same computer printout (book rate) of hours needed to do a certain task, then the only difference would be the shop time and the parts. Some shops may allow you to bring in your own parts, others ask you if you take your own eggs to a restaurant to have them cook it for you. Personally, I think the mark up on parts is insane and that would certainly explain why Rock Auto is becoming so popular as is ebay. I have found a number of "mobile Mechanics" that do a superb job at very reasonable rates. Some as low as $35 per hour or even less. Most tell me that is about all they were actually making in a Dealership on a percentage and yet the customers were paying over a Hundred Dollars an hour shop time.

The other thing that I tried to point out is the preventative maintenance that one should do when they are in the process of changing out engines. Seldom if ever, do people address these problems. Under the intake is a couple of sensors. The Knox sensor (hope I am spelling that correctly), temp sensors and things that are exposed and only a matter of minutes to change out these items when everything is apart. The heater hoses are right out In the open and of course, one should consider changing them out. Usually, by the time a car gets to engine change out it is over ten years old. So are the bearings on your tensioner, bearings on the alternator, the bearings on the A/C unit, the upper and lower hoses. Radiators are getting so cheap these days, Rock Auto has them for around a $100 or if not, check on ebay or Amazon. Unless you have flushed out your radiator and changed the fluids you might want to consider this. Of course you want a new thermostat and might as well put in a rear main seal while you are at it. The hardest thing for me to do on most of the replacement parts was to go to the Dealership and purchase OEM Ford parts. It is about double and it is diffiucult for me to pay Fifty dollars for a radiator hose.

I hope I didn't offend anyone and if I did, I apologize. There are many ways to skin a cat as they say, doing it yourself is just one of the ways, hiring someone part time that moonlights on the week end is another way. Craigslist has hundreds of mobile mechanics, some good, some not so good. Due diligence on anything is certainly recommended. There are other options from doing it yourself or taking your car to a local garage or dealership. If someone takes the time to think about it, then it was worth my time to share what I did.

 

[donl]

Well, aside from the tit for tat about mechanics and shop rates. I want to know how the new engine runs and if the OP would make the same choice knowing what he now knows.

The OPs post was informative; I have recently seen a couple of posts from members in the throws of trying to decide on engine replacement, i.e., junkyard, take out motors, local or DIY rebuild and reman but the most of the last two paragraphs were too opinionated IMHO and bound to attract disagreement.

I will say that finding a knowledgeable and honest mechanic is hard to find and once you find one, never let him/her go and stop by at Christmas time and drop off some cash, or a liter of his/her favorite Scotch, Bourbon etc. too show him/her appreciation.

 

[Trainmaster]

Some great information Bill. But as an accountant, you know that hourly rate does not translate to take-home-pay.

not much difference between MAC tools, Snap on and Craftsman except the price of the tools

You really think so? Try swinging an engine with Home Depot tools.

Sure, there are mechanics who make a quarter million a year. There are also mechanics who make $25K. It seems that you envy anyone with a higher billable rate than you. Maybe you should prepare a resume?

We usually get what we pay for. While you've gone through great pains to ferret out the best rebuilder, you feel that your Craigslist installer with $100 worth of Chinese tools won't mess up $4000 investment you made. Good luck with that.

I make a lot of money. Am I foolish for not shopping around for an accountant who'll do my taxes for $12/hour?

 

[BillAlex]

One of the biggest disappointments of my life (other than when Peggy Sue left me for Ken) was getting a really good deal on what was purported to be a "low mileage" Ford 4.6L engine for an Explorer from a Junk Yard. We spent a couple of days and many skinned knuckles putting it in. Finally, the biggest thrill of all when we turned the key and it cranked over. Unfortunately, the minute we drove it around the block, it started knocking. The engine had a turned (spun) crank bearing and that was that.

Now here is the thing, I did it again. A few years later, with a knocking in the engine, I decided to replace a 99 Tahoe 5.7L (the old 350) with a very reasonable price used engine from a Junk Yard up in Minnesota. I bought it off ebay and it had "free freight". Again, the mileage was a little high at 88,000 miles on the clock. The price was right, $500 and delivered to Phoenix to my door step. Careful on this one as it turned out they wanted to charge another $140 to send a truck with a lift gate so I had to pick it up at the Freight depot. No problem, they loaded it in the back of my Expedition with a fork lift. So the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So Knock Knock,, same deal, parked it along the side of the house. Beautiful Truck, but it became worthless overnight.

Let's move on to "Third Times the Charm". In 2005, I purchased a new Eddie Bauer Expedition off the Show room floor. My wife loved it. The car hit 216,000 miles and a heater hose leaked down on a plug and bingo, Check Engine light. About $900 later, new hose, couple of plugs and out she ran. It dawned on me that the days were numbered. The key to running any Expedition over 200,000 miles comes down to one and one thing only; Changing your oil regularly and using Mobil One Synthetic Oil. If anyone tells you different, they are full of it. That is the key for high mileage, no problem with the phasers or timing chain and that is keep your oil changed regardless if it needs it or not. I had it changed every 5,000 miles religiously. Period.

My wife loved the Truck and didn't want a new one. That presented a problem. How do you find the same color, the same interior, with all the same options and in very low mileage for a 14 year old car? I found one. Ten digits difference on the VIN number, that's close! Less than a hundred thousand miles, immaculate inside and out. One problem. Phaser and timing chain guide making noise. Oil pick up in pan and tube clogged with plastic and metal shavings through the engine. So now what? So do I do it again and throw a $500 engine in like some of the guys have done here on the Forum or do I step up with a crate engine and spend about $3,000. Most shops quoting $1,500 t0 $2,000 labor and my shop that I have used for years quoted $6,000 for a crate engine installed from Ford. So I did some research. A lot of research. Hours and hours of research and came up with PROMAR precision engines. https://www.promarengine.com/

So why did I decide on spending $3,000 for a Reman Engine? I didn't want to do it again. Here is why I went with Promar;
All machine work is performed on fully CNC machines.

• CNC Line boring camshaft journals in every cylinder head to ensure proper (minimum) oil clearance

• Installing Brand New updated OEM camshaft phasers.

• Installing new Melling High Volume Oil Pump

• Installing new hypereutectic graphite coated pistons & piston rings

• Promar Installs updated MLS (Multi-Layer Steel) Head Gaskets

• OEM Rear main seal

• These blocks are magnifluxed, resurfaced, bored and torque plate diamond honed simulating the same conditions in the bore the engine will have under normal operation, ensuring a perfect hone.

• Cylinders are held to tolerances of .0001" (roundness & taper)

• Crankshafts are ground and micro-polished, connecting rods are reconditioned, and cylinder heads are reconditioned receiving a 3 angle valve job.

• new rod & main bearings, timing chains, tensioners & guides.

• We supply all remaining gaskets to complete the installation.

They are located in New Jersey, so whey didn't I go locally with one of the machine shops? Because I saw the shops and I saw what it takes to do it right. Go to there web site and look at the machinery and equipment it takes to do the job right. Let's list it:
ALIGN HONING
Align honing is the best method for precision alignment of main bearing bores. Promar uses the Sunnen CH-100 machine for all of its benefits and features, as we can minimize stock removal, usually less than .003" (.076 mm) off the caps compared to as much as .010" (.254 mm) with boring.
BLOCK PREPARATION
A complete visual inspection of the block is performed. Repairs will be made to minor casting defects, removal of broken bolts are performed as well as repair and tapping of threads. Gasket surface repairs are performed to minimize stock removal and each block is fitted with new full circle cam bearings, oil restrictors, relief valves, new water and oil plugs
CASTING REPAIR (BLOCK & HEAD)
Using the various traditional welding methods, crack repair on cast iron components is risky, to say the least. Even though the piece is prepped and cleaned and most of all properly heated prior to the repair, the possibility exists that uncontrolled temperature change can warp, stretch or cause other cracks and even alter the hardness of the metal. You can create more damage than you are attempting to repair
CRANKSHAFT GRINDING
Continuing our efforts to produce the best and most reliable product in the industry, we utilize the Berco RTM 225A precision crankshaft grinder. Coupled with our expert craftsmen, this state-of-the-art unit incorporates rigid construction and precise controls; affording Promar customers the most accurately ground crankshafts possible. Precise controls afford precision grinding, which is followed up by brush cleaning and chamfering of all oil passages.
CRANKSHAFT MAGNETIC PARTICLE INSPECTION
Magnetic particle inspection is the most definitive methods of detecting cracks and imperfections in any ferrous engine parts. This procedure assures the highest quality crankshaft cores for remanufacturing.
CYLINDER BORING
Promar employs the Rottler F54X boring bar with its large diameter and hard chromed spindle. This spindle is supported on adjustable tapered bearings for superior accuracy. The F54X uses a precision ground ball screw to control feed rate and cutter position. By controlling these factors the machine can repeat cutter position accuracy to .0002" (.005mm). With its digital programmable cycles, the F54X allows boring depth to be programmed to .0001" (.0025mm).
CYLINDER HONING
Promar Engines continues to keep their name as the best engine builder in the business. Promar is the first company in the world with Rottler's newest cylinder honing machine. We have upgraded from Sunnen's SV-10 honing machine to Rottler's H85AXY fully automatic high production diamond cylinder honing machine, which is unlike any other honing machine in the industry. This machine is the most accurate honing machine available with cylinders finishing within .0001" roundness and straightness. This automatic honing machine takes any potential operator error out of the equation. Rottler's H85AXY allows you to select desired cross hatch angle for a perfect finish for all applications. It also allows for sensitivity control and stone wear. As the machine hones, it shows the profile of the bore graphically as it continuously analyzes the bore and senses taper anywhere in the cylinder - top, middle or bottom and automatically dwells or short strokes as programmed, correcting the tight area. As engines continue to get more complex, oil clearances and machining tolerances continue to become even more critical. The only way to keep up with evolving engine designs is to use every piece of technology available to us. There is no question why Promar continues to be the best remanufactured engine in the industry. Make sure your engine block is machined by the best machine available, you won't be disappointed.
ENGINE BALANCING
Promar's digitally controlled balancer is extremely accurate, producing precise balanced crankshafts, it has the ability to measure unbalance from .01 to 1,000 grams on work pieces weighing up to 500 lbs. (226kg). This process using the Sunnen DCB 2000 is optional for this application.
MAGNAFLUXING
Magnetic particle inspection is the most definitive method of detecting cracks and imperfections in any ferrous engine parts. This engine block magnafluxing procedure assures the highest quality cast iron blocks. The next process is pressure testing, but first, let us explain how aluminum blocks are cleaned, pressure tested and checked for casting defects.
MICRO POLISHING
Promar uses a crankshaft micro-polisher with a rigid polishing system. The QPAC Q190-38-3 has a solid abrasive tape that wraps around the journal and is backed up with a shoe. This shoe applies equal pressure all the way around the journal while it is being polished.

Traditional polishing techniques use a manually operated belt sander that can alter the geometry of the journal, slightly creating some taper or out-of-roundness. If the surface finish on the crankshaft journal is not right or the geometry is slightly off, the bearings will suffer the consequences when the crankshaft is put into service. While polishing in one direction and then automatically polishing in the opposite direction, the QPAC system leaves a better finish and eliminates microscopic peaks that can cause premature bearing failure. The finishing process always ends in the same direction as the engine rotation.
PRESSURE TESTING
Promar uses the Delta Pressure tester to double check for pin holes after magnafluxing and dye testing are completed. Cracks and defects not detected during the first process are found at this time. This second process insures the integrity of all castings used in Promar products.
RESURFACING (BLOCK & HEAD)
Milling machines that are used by Promar are set up specifically 1 for blocks and 1 for heads. The Winona Van Norman M3000 machines are used for their variable feed rate, which is essential to acquire proper Ra finish for each block. Ra finish determination is based on the type of block, be it aluminum or cast iron, and by the type of gasket used for each specific application. These machines utilize CBN (cubic boron nitride) cutters, which are second in hardness only to a diamond. During the cutting process heat from friction is absorbed and carried off by the discarded metal chips thus resulting in improved accuracy and excellent surface finish
SHOT BLASTING (STAINLESS STEEL)
Our shot-blasting machine employs a cleaning method using stainless steel shot. This finishing process is used by Promar to remove surface contamination such as rust and irregularities from blocks. The result of this method is a cleaner smoother surface finish to make easy the detection of surface and subsurface casting defects during quality inspection.