What's this terrible noise?

[5280tunage]

Welp, I did it. I was literally thinking to myself recently how it's been a couple years now that my expy was pretty reliable. And BAM! Started it up a couple days ago after it sat for a couple hours and whamo, got the attached sound at start up. Honestly it sounds like starting up a cold diesel sitting in below zero temps. Reminds me of when an oil pump is dying. Would appreciate some thoughts before I take this in. I do have ford premium care but I'm not looking forward to the car sitting at the dealer for possibly weeks on end again.

The noise only last a second or two, and I know for a fact it's not wastegate rattles, i've had and fixed and have that again. The recording was taken under the car, near the oil pan.

Sep 7 at 4-19 PM.m4a

drive.google.com

 

[Fizzy]

Cam phasers.

Here's a video - sounds identical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnGUcBfDu0

 

[5280tunage]

Cam phasers.

Here's a video - sounds identical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnGUcBfDu0

they've been replaced, so if that's the case that's super fun. But the phasers are on the top front of the engine right? I just find it crazy this sound appears to so much louder at the bottom of the motor than inside the engine bay.

 

[Fizzy]

Were they done with the revised part, or the old part? I thought I'd read some of the early cam phaser repairs coming back to haunt their owners later.

I mean, I agree with you, that the noise should be more prevalent up top - but it's pretty hard to argue with the sound comparison. Especially the fact it disappears after 2 seconds. You could overlay your sound file right over the video and not know the difference.

Have you tried a cold start with the hood up?

 

[Fastcar]

Cam phasers.

Here's a video - sounds identical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnGUcBfDu0

I agree! Nice call Fizzy!

 

[5280tunage]

This stinks. I listened to several videos on Youtube and @Fizzy is right. Man this is such a pain. I still don't understand how there wasn't something like a class action for this, given the impact to so many people and the fact that its so likely to cause other issues when they do the service. This is most likely why my drivers side valve cover was cracked.

Sadly it was a long time ago, they did them in 2020 with about 12k miles on it. Ford required the dealer to do the phasers before they would approve the turbo replacements, which is so stupid. They kept arguing the turbo rattle sounded like phasers, not even close.

Thanks all and sorry for wasting a thread on this dumb issue again.

 

[Fizzy]

No apologies needed man. It sucks for sure.

Not sure when the redesigned parts came out but if I was a betting man I’d say it was after your repair.

If it’s any consolation, I had both valve covers replaced for cracks/leaks - and they came from the factory like that. The next time they need replacing, out of warranty, I’ll be looking at aftermarket aluminum covers.

 

[ROBERT BONNER]

Classic phaser sound. Try "priming" next cold start and see if the noise is prevented: Press both the accelerator and brake, press button. Release accelerator once the instrument cluster flashes on.

 

[5280tunage]

yup, have an appointment at the end of the month, and of course, all of the techs and service managers I liked are gone. revolving door of ford service departments. Sure hope they have loaners available.

 

[Fastcar]

yup, have an appointment at the end of the month, and of course, all of the techs and service managers I liked are gone. revolving door of ford service departments. Sure hope they have loaners available.

Yup, kinda makes you wonder why the turnover. Some turn help like McDeees.

 

[GlennSullivan]

Sooooooooo disapointing.

 

[5280tunage]

FWIW, I tried the brake/gas thing, it made the noise so much worse with the engine revving up a bit at startup. I could hear it in the cabin with the doors/windows closed so bad. has anyone had these phasers actually grenade themselves? I'm a little worried now driving this thing for another month.

 

[Fizzy]

FWIW, I tried the brake/gas thing, it made the noise so much worse with the engine revving up a bit at startup. I could hear it in the cabin with the doors/windows closed so bad. has anyone had these phasers actually grenade themselves? I'm a little worried now driving this thing for another month.

My understanding is that once that rattle stops (1-2 seconds) the phasers operate normally. They just don’t prime with oil properly at the start. Or something like that.

 

[5280tunage]

Makes sense, I just can't believe that metal on metal sounds like that will last for too long before something disintegrates.

 

[5280tunage]

Classic phaser sound. Try "priming" next cold start and see if the noise is prevented: Press both the accelerator and brake, press button. Release accelerator once the instrument cluster flashes on.

Help me understand this "priming" thing. It's a mechanical oil pump, seems like nothing you do before the pump starts turning would force oil into the phasers. I could be completely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time but no ICE engine I've ever worked on could lubricate itself without oil pressure from the pump. FWIW I have read this on the forum before as well.

Regardless I tried and it actually made worse as the engine rpm went higher at start than normal.

 

[Left Coast Geek]

my 2019 that has around 82K miles rattles for about 1 minute at idle when its cold. supposedly phasers made after 2022 are fixed. I'll be getting it fixed in October.

 

[GlennSullivan]

Help me understand this "priming" thing. It's a mechanical oil pump, seems like nothing you do before the pump starts turning would force oil into the phasers. I could be completely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time but no ICE engine I've ever worked on could lubricate itself without oil pressure from the pump. FWIW I have read this on the forum before as well.

Regardless I tried and it actually made worse as the engine rpm went higher at start than normal.

The process of holding the accelerator (gas) pedal "hard against the floor" (important) cuts off fuel, which allows the engine to crank and build oil pressure, but not fire. In your case, this could prime the phasers and avoid the startup rattle. No guarantee, but worth a try.

HOWEVER, during this process you do not let up or off the gas pedal in any way while cranking, because the engine will fire at high RPM - you know this now. Instead, stop cranking, take your foot off the accelerator, wait a second and then start the engine normally with your foot off the gas. It should start normally, and if enough oil pressure, might not rattle the phasers.

*** EDIT *** I just tried the "crank no start process" described above on my 2017 3.5 and it works as described. I don't have the phaser issue so don't know if you will get sufficient oil pressure build to improve / stop the rattle.

 

[ROBERT BONNER]

Help me understand this "priming" thing. It's a mechanical oil pump, seems like nothing you do before the pump starts turning would force oil into the phasers. I could be completely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time but no ICE engine I've ever worked on could lubricate itself without oil pressure from the pump. FWIW I have read this on the forum before as well.

Regardless I tried and it actually made worse as the engine rpm went higher at start than normal.

The theory (urban legend?) is that cranking without fuel turns the engine and oil pump at about 250 rpm. Turning at 250 rpm for a few seconds is enough to move engine oil through the bearings and up to the phasers and cams, filling the hydraulic mechanism inside the phaser to prevent the noise on a cold (empty phaser) startup in a failed phaser; or, hydraulically relieving the load on the mechanical lockout that prevents the rattle on a phaser that hasn't yet failed, postponing metal fatigue that eventually causes the lockout to fail. The theory also implies that running the failed or not yet failed phasers without oil pressure at 250 rpm for a few seconds is better than at 1,000+ rpm typical cold fast idle on an [instant] start-up.

For better or for worse, I've been following the priming procedure for a year or more on my '20 Expedition which has not failed any phasers. Note that I release the accelerator quickly after "priming" and the engine starts normally. The symphony of under hood noise that normally occurs on a cold start-up which I have always assumed to be partially filled hydraulic lifters is much lower on a primed cold start than an unprimed cold start.

I certainly hope that no further damage was done to yours when you attempted to "prime" it. I am unsure why yours would have flashed to a higher rpm unless you didn't completely release the accelerator to start it.

The phaser problem should be genuinely solved on my '22 F150 PowerBoost Hybrid. It has a 14 psi electric oil pump that operates while the ICE is off and the EV system is powering the vehicle or generator feature. In fact, when a cold or hot start is performed on the hybrid, the vehicle is always "ready" with the ICE off for a few seconds while it decides whether the ICE is needed for heat, cooling and/or charging. Enough time for the electric oil pump to "prime" the lubrication system. Note that the electric pump is absolutely necessary on the hybrid as the ICE can be "clutched in" at upwards of 2,000 rpm in less than a second. It does so routinely in normal operation with a lot less fanfare than I would have imagined.

 

[5280tunage]

I think the posts fron @GlennSullivan and @ROBBERT BONNER helped a little and it makes more sense having tried it again, but I still feel like you'd have to let it crank for several seconds or more at the lower RPM to build up enough oil pressure (and time wise) to get enough lubrication to those parts. I 100% agree with Robert that something like an electronic oil pump (maybe even a secondary for the std ICE engines) would make sense for helping this issue. However, one of the reasons we're all directed to leverage the higher cost synthetic oils is that they are proven the leave more lubricant on surfaces for longer, one would hope that that's enough to protect something like phasers.

regardless, I just tried it again and I think maybe my issue was I didn't hold the pedal to the floor "enough". this time i was able to let it crank for 2-3 seconds, stopped the start, then started it again and the RPM's didn't fly high. interestingly though, my engine was at completely normal operating temp, as it's only been sitting about 15 minutes since I last drove it, in 85degree temps, and the phasers still rattled after doing this procedure, so maybe mine are just far too shot for it to help.

this begs a separate question though. Doesn't this procedure embarrass some of you in public? i.e. you're in a crowded parking lot and you have to do this two-step startup procedure, where it basically sounds like you're trying to turn over a 1976 400CI V8? it takes 2-3 tries?

 

[Calidad]

Phasers. Mine has done it for the last 35,000 miles after sitting 12-24hrs. Seems worse if parked nose high. Will probably have the warranty cover the Phasers and cdf drum rebuild around 100,000 miles. I’ll chip in for new timing chain parts and some new transmission parts to go back into it. Hope to get another 4-5 yrs