Is all the "fuel saving" tech really worth it in the long run?

[TobyU]

Cars now last longer than ever.

More ‘woke socialist’ nonsense right?

Lol

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2211617001

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/...the-tech-that-keeps-your-car-for-decades/?amp




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I think that trend of lasting longer is diminishing.
This is what I was referring to with the needed repairs to keep them "lasting".
They were lasting longer and longer until around 05-12 then many of them seem to need expensive repairs that the old ones did not.
I think people will keep the newer ones a shorter period of time and lots will sell of trade in when these repairs come up... which is probably exactly what the car makers want. I have a flock of old cars around here from an old 93 chevy truck with 305k to 03 Navigator with barely 100k, a 2000 Excursion with 49k, and lots in between. NONE have had even a valve cover off! I really doubt a 2008 5.4 3v will be running with its original timing components and 225k in 2029 like my 4.6 and 5.4s are.

 

[carymccarr]

I think people will keep the newer ones a shorter period of time

One would think so but it’s not true. In fact people are keeping vehicles much longer now because cars are so trouble free for so much longer.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp22815727/america-household-vehicle-age/


https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/05/28...es-for-longer-which-is-both-good-and-bad.html


https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/101108-consumers-holding-onto-cars-longer

 

[Plati]

Therein lies the question: no one's arguing that the better MPG and more power are not awesome, but do they actually save you money in the long run when you factor in the added complexity and maintenance costs?
...

Were you under the impression that the government mandated fuel savings … was done to save you money?

 

[Plati]

So I read up a bit on this Cuyahoga River fire thing and yes it's been on fire like 13 times. ….

The "fire thing" is a headline … yes. River was polluted though.

quote from wiki
"The Cuyahoga River, at times during the 20th century, was one of the most polluted rivers in the United States. The reach from Akron to Cleveland was devoid of fish."

is that a better consideration than a fire thing?
maybe you never fished so don't care?

cant see the river for the fire?

 

[TobyU]

One would think so but it’s not true. In fact people are keeping vehicles much longer now because cars are so trouble free for so much longer.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp22815727/america-household-vehicle-age/


https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/05/28...es-for-longer-which-is-both-good-and-bad.html


https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/101108-consumers-holding-onto-cars-longer

I think there's a little lag in stats too.
The first one is aug 2018 so data prob put together late 17 or early 18. They say lowest average was 9 and highest 13 so that means nothing newer than about 2010.
The first signs I saw of bad engine trends was 05 but then again around 2012.
So maybe in 8 more years there might be a dip.
I think the rest of the cars are lasting well it's just engines are not repair free.
This might not change thir numbers overall. Many people will just have the 1800 repair done end chalk it up to necessary.
What would be a more interesting report would be repairs on 1000s of 2000 Expys up to 2015 and then 2010 up to 2025.
I would want actual repairs and not cost or repairs or cost of ownership.
This is why stats are general and don't always tell you exactly what you want to know.
Edmond's tries to show costs but still doesn't really hit it all.
It might just be an offset.
Remember the days wgen every car needed a new trans or it rebuilt sometime in its life? Was too common. Then they got a lot better. The majority of them for a while now have been going 225k on original. I don't like seeing the 6 and 10 speeds as I fear we will lose this.
Maybe it will just go to engine repairs instead of trans to keep car on n the road.
I just see some things going thir wrong way in durability and longevity and I say that's a bad thing.

 

[762mm]

Were you under the impression that the government mandated fuel savings … was done to save you money?

Of course not, but this is the argument car makers and dealerships make all the time: "this car does XX MPG, think of the fuel savings!"

A lot of tax dollars are also wasted on government fleet vehicles that get "better gas mileage", because it looks more "green" on paper, whereas in reality these cars cost much more in maintenance than the money they save in gasoline. The new wave of pickup trucks with small turbo-charged engines come to mind: those puppies ain't gonna last like the naturally-aspirated V8's they are replacing.

The trend with electric and hybrid cars is no different: they cost an arm and a leg compared to equivalent ICE versions, but have shorter service lives on average. The typical Prius still can't beat a Corolla in long term ownership costs, as an example. As they age, Priuses become endless money pits (generator, batteries, etc); Corollas keep on driving with minimal maintenance till the body rusts through, lol!

All this sacrifice in the name of countering some obscure event called "climate change" that those who watch too much main stream media fear more than anything, better known as "weather" to the rest of humanity. Hence why the religion of "climate change" is a 400-billion dollar per year industry.

 

[Plati]

….

The trend with electric and hybrid cars is no different: they cost an arm and a leg compared to equivalent ICE versions, but have shorter service lives on average. The typical Prius still can't beat a Corolla in long term ownership costs, as an example. As they age, Priuses become endless money pits (generator, batteries, etc); Corollas keep on driving with minimal maintenance till the body rusts through, lol!

All this sacrifice in the name of countering some obscure event called "climate change" that those who watch too much main stream media fear more than anything, better known as "weather" to the rest of humanity. Hence why the religion of "climate change" is a 400-billion dollar per year industry.

I remember (don't know if anyone does this anymore) people standing on street corners preaching about God. Yelling all day long to anyone within ear shot about their religious beliefs. Usually holding a sign or wearing a placard.

This is all you are doing with your Climate Change denier "shouting".
Its just the 21st century version of the street corner preacher. Its your right, I guess.

...it's just weather! Ha.
That's taking it as far to the other extreme as the Green Nutcases.

 

[Plati]

I think there's a little lag in stats too.
The first one is aug 2018 so data prob put together late 17 or early 18. They say lowest average was 9 and highest 13 so that means nothing newer than about 2010.
The first signs I saw of bad engine trends was 05 but then again around 2012.
So maybe in 8 more years there might be a dip.
I think the rest of the cars are lasting well it's just engines are not repair free.
This might not change thir numbers overall. Many people will just have the 1800 repair done end chalk it up to necessary.
What would be a more interesting report would be repairs on 1000s of 2000 Expys up to 2015 and then 2010 up to 2025.
I would want actual repairs and not cost or repairs or cost of ownership.
This is why stats are general and don't always tell you exactly what you want to know.
Edmond's tries to show costs but still doesn't really hit it all.
It might just be an offset.
Remember the days wgen every car needed a new trans or it rebuilt sometime in its life? Was too common. Then they got a lot better. The majority of them for a while now have been going 225k on original. I don't like seeing the 6 and 10 speeds as I fear we will lose this.
Maybe it will just go to engine repairs instead of trans to keep car on n the road.
I just see some things going thir wrong way in durability and longevity and I say that's a bad thing.

There has been a LOT more going on with design, manufacturing, quality control, cost containment, automotive engineering, competition, materials, technology … than just improved gas mileage goals over the past <insert a number> years. I know from a career at Xerox how much cheaper products were made in the 2000's than before that … to be able to compete on price. They don't last as long. The big thing now is that everything is disposable. The pressure in Engineering to continually make it quicker and cheaper is relentless. Its Capitalism. To try to be simplistic and pin it on gas mileage improvements is simplistic.

Having said that I have no actual numbers (I know you dislike facts and love opinion, don't have to restate that) but your "gut feel" is an interesting datapoint … of one.

 

[carymccarr]

that those who watch too much main stream media

:

Or read books, newspapers and science journals....

Curious...where are you getting your ‘data’?

 

[TobyU]

There has been a LOT more going on with design, manufacturing, quality control, cost containment, automotive engineering, competition, materials, technology … than just improved gas mileage goals over the past <insert a number> years. I know from a career at Xerox how much cheaper products were made in the 2000's than before that … to be able to compete on price. They don't last as long. The big thing now is that everything is disposable. The pressure in Engineering to continually make it quicker and cheaper is relentless. Its Capitalism. To try to be simplistic and pin it on gas mileage improvements is simplistic.

Having said that I have no actual numbers (I know you dislike facts and love opinion, don't have to restate that) but your "gut feel" is an interesting datapoint … of one.

That's all very true. Many/most companies products are not intended to last as long since they compete on price point and expect you to buy more . Maybe it is about to hit the auto industry.
The main reason cars started lasting-being kept- longer was that the bodies were not rusting out with giant holes as bad and engines were going way over 100k with no major or internal repairs needed.
It's not that I dislike facts. I just know that they are not always an accurate predictor of the chance of outcomes for every person or for one particular person - me or you. While statistics or percentages of failures etc are factually countable numbers, they are still too all encompassing to guarrantee you or I both with our possibly very different from the norm situation will experience with the exact same product.
Even being fact, they only give you relative likelihood.
I only double, triple, quadruple down on my opinion in response to other comments that seem to use past numbers or overall industry ones to be as exact of facts as gravity or time....heck, even those can possibly be relative or the effects not the same as the established norm or rule.
I'm sure I'll be called out on this too and told I'm "confusing" statistics or facts with some other term so someone can feel better.
I will just maintain that most everything is or can be relative.

I have started to see a little more rust on cars but I think that is the salt and brine solution they are using on roads. They still last much longer than in the 70s-early 80s but it's a scary trend though.