330k miles without engine work

[Torrg]

My wife's '08 Expedition has just over 330,000 miles on it and it's been pretty good to us. Some common items have been replaced, like the rear air shocks, and a transmission valve body, but other than that, no engine work beyond plugs, oil, and filters. Yes, all original valve timing equipment. A couple of years ago it started making timing chain noises so we parked it and it hasn't been started since. At least that's what it sounded like.. a chain slapping around for a few seconds before going quiet again. It did this again on the way home but once the noise stopped everything sounded normal. I'd like to add that even for the few seconds the noise was there, power was normal with no hesitation, so I don't think I've jumped a tooth. I know this engine has oiling issues but I haven't dug into it yet so I cannot speak to what the rockers or cam bearings look like. All that said... I'm looking at putting this thing back on the road and I'd like to do that as cheap as reasonably possible. In my head, here are my options:

1. Purchase a reman engine. This option is likely the most foolproof as I don't have to worry about all the things that are likely wrong with my engine. It's also the most expensive. I've seen reman's online for around $3,200 shipped.

2. Do a compression test and check the crank for excessive play. If these look good I'm probably OK to do a full timing kit and maybe the passenger head depending on what that looks like. Chain kits I've seen for under $500 and heads for just north of $600 for a total of around $1200 worst case.

3. The engine ran very well other than the event with the noise that I suspect was the timing chain. I could just replace the tensioners and guides and call it a day. I realize there is risk with this option, but honestly, if it goes another 50k miles I'd be satisfied. I've bought 4 cars over that past 24 months for family members so I'd like to hold off on another for a bit.

I'm looking for thoughts and advice... Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[JamaicaJoe]

I am curious if you tried starting with A/C turned off to rule out rude compressor noises?

 

[Torrg]

We're on the same page. I'm 99.9% it's the engine. About 6-9 months prior I did change the AC compressor, but yes, I did run it without the AC on. Shortly after I decided to park the truck I tried to replicate the noise by running it for ~15-20 minutes. Idle, faster idle, and up to about 3k RPMs. Not hard but I wasn't just idling either. I went up and down the drive way a few times, but was never able to cause the noise again.

So I just pulled the passenger valve cover and the cam lobes look good. I mean, no detectable wear anyway. I'm concerned about the roller rockers, but without removing the cam they look good too. I'm going to test for cam bearing play here shortly. I also checked for excessive crank walking/play and it all checks out OK.

All this said, with that valve cover off I can see down into where the timing chain guides are located. Clearly they've disintegrated. There's a black plastic chunk kind of just resting on the chain that moves around.. the guide no doubt. These tensioners are activated from oil pressure and since this thing hasn't run in 2 years, I wouldn't expect much tensioning going on, but the chain can be moved around quite a bit with my fingers. I'm not sure how normal that is, but the guides are at least partly missing, so that's likely the culprit.

My inclination as of right now... the crank checks out so I'm not worried about being forced to replace the block. I cannot find my compression tester, but as I said earlier, it ran very smooth and I'm not looking for another 200K out of this thing anyway. I ordered another test kit regardless. I do want to verify that the roller rockers are healthy so I need to find the process to do that, but visually at least, they look OK. I think I'm going to open up the front and either do a full timing chain kit (maybe oil pump), or just the guides and tensioners.

 

[Gary Waugh]

I have an 08 with 259K miles ond zero engine issues, so it’s great to hear your has done 330k, gives me hope!! Changing the engine sounds great, but I would be very concerned about the transmission and wheel bearings, after that mileage I would suspect the entire drive system would be very tired, by changing only the engine are you not setting yourself up for a lot of expensive transmission work shortly afterwards?

 

[Torrg]

Honestly, if it weren't for the lousy plastic timing chain guides my engine would have likely gone well over 500K. Do I think the transmission would? Ford auto's are a crap-shoot. My transmission guy tells me these don't usually last more than 150K. He's rebuilt the transmission in a '99 Taurus that we had twice and that thing's barely got 150K on it. So, I agree with you in that if I were to drop a rebuilt engine in the truck, there's a very likely chance there will be transmission issues in the near future. But then again, say I do the minimal engine work just to get the truck on the road again. Same transmission risks, right?

Anyway, I've decided to do the full timing work. Chains, guides, tensioners, phasers, etc. I'm doing the HV oil pump too because I'd really hate to do all this only to have it grenade over $130. Getting to the oil pump is involved so now is the time. Total is $1000 and will be well worth it to have another available vehicle. The only things I did not order and I'm still on the fence on are the roller followers ($350) and VCT Solenoids. Both can always be done if there's an issue later, assuming the failure is not sudden and catastrophic as they only require the removal of the valve covers. More risk, but another $500, and again, I'm not trying to go another 300K here.

Gary - If you've never done the timing chain maintenance, it is certainly time. I would have done it earlier but at the time I was expecting to be able to to replace the Expedition with another. Clearly, I didn't account for 3 kids that needed vehicles as they went off to college. Assuming you've been on point with oil changes and use synthetics, I wouldn't have any doubts that you'll be able to go another 150K+ and likely more than that, on the engine. Again, the transmission is a big question mark. When my valve body had issues it would put the transmission in 2nd and 3rd at the same time while driving. Apparently, this produced a ride my wife was not OK with, as it locked up the rear tires for a second or two, while driving down the road.

 

[Hamfisted]

Sounds like you're on the right track. If your chain guides have come apart I would drop the oil pan to inspect and clean out the oil pump intake tube screen. It'll also make installing the new oil pump much, much easier with the oil tube retention bolt access.




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[max78]

The 6R80 thats behind the 5.4 in the Expedition is a completely different animal that's in the Taurus. . . . If its not slipping I wouldn't worry about it as long as you have kept up on the routine maintenance.

Our trans is sitting around 225K miles (30K of it was tuned) and it seems to be holding up. I'm having issues with power loss from the engine at the moment, but even after driving around leaking, low fluid and slipping it seems to still be working good for now.

From what I have read people like to put these transmissions in 800+ hp cars in stock form.

 

[KOTU]

The start-up sound is coming from one or both chain tensioners. I had the same issue as well as the tic-tic-tic from a rocker/roller. My engine is a 2007, 5.4L 3v Lincoln Navigator. I replaced the timing components which included the tensioners and guides. While I was at it, I put in a new oil pump, front seal, water pump, thermostat, rocker/rollers, valve lifters, VCT solenoids, fan clutch, and alternator. I did the work myself over a two-and-a-half-month period. All total the work cost roughly $2200.00. This included the specialty tools and other related stuff that made the work go easily.

 

[twodollars]

Did the timing set, with followers on my 2013 this past winter. Used melling timing set, can't recall who's followers, and the melling high volume pump. Think I was into about 650 with parts and the stupid special tools to compress springs and orient crankshaft. Runs fine now, noise gone. Both my original tensioners had blown out seals. Not a terrible job, but not fun either.

 

[max78]

I did my timing chain around 190K or so. One blown tensioner but no damage to the guides. I did it by clamping vice grips onto the camshaft. The vice grips held them in place for the most part but one did move, but I was able to rotate it to the proper position and get it reassembled without removing any of the cam followers or any of that stuff. I know its not the "correct way" but clamping on the rough cast part of the cam has zero risk.

I installed a Melling kit chain with cast iron tensioners (no gasket) and the high flow pump while I was in there, phasers and solenoids are original.