Expedition EL or Suburban?

[metaldrgn]

Check out the tahoe forum here if you want to see what they are saying about it.

General Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Discussion Forum - Tahoe Forum - Chevy Tahoe Forum

 

[montecarlo31]

It isn't a significant improvement. Vacuum brake boosters work just fine. The big reason a hydraulic system is used is because the vacuum pressure isn't enough ( I.e. engines built for high rpm racing) so I don't know why ford would have put one in. Its probably just another selling gimmick. Not needed like the tailgate lift assist.

Yeah...that's right...that's why trucks that need stopping power use them and humm lets see even the mustangs in a non "high rpm" setting.

 

[metaldrgn]

Yeah...that's right...that's why trucks that need stopping power use them and humm lets see even the mustangs in a non "high rpm" setting.

So you're telling me you've had problems braking with the vacuum system? The stock mustangs don't need it. Your power steering pump will probably go out before your brake booster then you'll have no assist.

 

[montecarlo31]

So you're telling me you've had problems braking with the vacuum system? The stock mustangs don't need it. Your power steering pump will probably go out before your brake booster then you'll have no assist.

Absolutely you can feel the difference. Vacuum assist is easy to overwhelm, hydroboost can more than make up for lost efficiency. Why do you think 3/4s use them even in a gas application? I realize you believe you know it all but fact is when you need big stopping power for lots of weight hydroboost is far more efficient than a vacuum system.

 

[metaldrgn]

Absolutely you can feel the difference. Vacuum assist is easy to overwhelm, hydroboost can more than make up for lost efficiency. Why do you think 3/4s use them even in a gas application? I realize you believe you know it all but fact is when you need big stopping power for lots of weight hydroboost is far more efficient than a vacuum system.

There are other things that help in braking too. Some determinates are caliper piston size/brake pad size and how many pistons are in the caliper. You think the manufacturer is producing vehicles with insufficient braking power for the GVWR and tow rating? I think not or there'd be more reports of it unless you want to link some posts. There is a thing as too much braking power too. You don't want to chirp the tires just by hitting the brakes just a little harder. I could be wrong about some stuff, I never said I knew everything so why don't you stop being such a *****.

Regardless of what they have, they both work great

 

[montecarlo31]

There are other things that help in braking too. Some determinates are caliper piston size/brake pad size and how many pistons are in the caliper. You think the manufacturer is producing vehicles with insufficient braking power for the GVWR and tow rating? I think not or there'd be more reports of it unless you want to link some posts. There is a thing as too much braking power too. You don't want to chirp the tires just by hitting the brakes just a little harder. I could be wrong about some stuff, I never said I knew everything so why don't you stop being such a *****.

Regardless of what they have, they both work great

Nice edit there. I love some good back peddling.

Oh and here's a nice test for you to chew on for a bit. Keep in mind the expedition was lighter, has bigger brakes and far superior technology since the GM suburban is using carry over brakes from the '00 to 06 chassis. I'm willing to bet you have never driven a vehicle with and without hydroboost to make the claims you are making. My suburban never required the amount of brake pressure that the expeditions did/do if I don't have the trailer brakes set correctly. You can feel the trailer push through the brakes.

Suburban:

TEST VEHICLE DESCRIPTION
MAKE Chevrolet MODEL Suburban 3/4 Ton SALES CODE NO. CK20906
ENGINE DISPLACEMENT CUBIC INCHES 400 LITERS 6.0
FUEL SYSTEM Sequential Port Fuel Injection EXHAUST Single
HORSEPOWER (SAENET) 352 ALTERNATOR 160
TORQUE 383 BATTERY 600 CCA
COMPRESSION RATIO 9.6
MODEL 6L90E TYPE 6 – Speed Hydromatic
LOCKUP TORQUE CONVERTER? Yes
TRANSMISSION
OVERDRIVE? Yes
AXLE RATIO 3.73
STEERING Recirculating Ball
TURNING CIRCLE (CURB TO CURB) 45.3
TIRE SIZE, LOAD & SPEED RATING Bridgestone Duravis LT245/75R16 M773 II
SUSPENSION TYPE (FRONT) Standard long-and short arm independent front torsion bar suspension
SUSPENSION TYPE (REAR) Semi-elliptic 2-stage multileaf spring
GROUND CLEARANCE, MINIMUM 9.1 in. LOCATION Rear Axle
BRAKE SYSTEM Power-assisted, Hydroboost brake-apply system, 4-wheel disc, 4-
wheel ABS
BRAKES, FRONT TYPE Disc SWEPT AREA 233 sq. in.
BRAKES, REAR TYPE Disc SWEPT AREA 133 sq. in.
FUEL CAPACITY GALLONS 39 LITERS 148
WHEELBASE 130.0 in. LENGTH 222.4 in. GENERAL MEASUREMENTS
TEST WEIGHT 6342 HEIGHT 76.8 in.
HEADROOM FRONT 41.1 in REAR 38.1 in.
LEGROOM FRONT 41.3 in. REAR 34.9in.
SHOULDER ROOM FRONT 65.3 in. REAR 64.7 in.
HIPROOM FRONT 64.4 in. REAR 61.8 in.
FRONT 60.9 cu.ft. REAR 56.28 cu.ft. INTERIOR VOLUME
*MAX. CARGO IS W/REAR SEATS
FOLDED DOWN COMB 127.18 cu.ft. *MAX. CARGO 137.4 cu.ft.

EPA MILEAGE EST. (MPG) CITY
Unregulated
HIGHWAY
Unregulated
COMBINED
Unregulated

Trucks with Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings over 8,500 lbs are not included in the EPA fuel economy rating system. Fuel economy
information on these models is generally not available because of wide variances in vehicle loading and operational conditions
between various customer applications.

Expedition:

TEST VEHICLE DESCRIPTION
MAKE Chevrolet MODEL Suburban 3/4 Ton SALES CODE NO. CK20906
ENGINE DISPLACEMENT CUBIC INCHES 400 LITERS 6.0
FUEL SYSTEM Sequential Port Fuel Injection EXHAUST Single
HORSEPOWER (SAENET) 352 ALTERNATOR 160
TORQUE 383 BATTERY 600 CCA
COMPRESSION RATIO 9.6
MODEL 6L90E TYPE 6 – Speed Hydromatic
LOCKUP TORQUE CONVERTER? Yes
TRANSMISSION
OVERDRIVE? Yes
AXLE RATIO 3.73
STEERING Recirculating Ball
TURNING CIRCLE (CURB TO CURB) 45.3
TIRE SIZE, LOAD & SPEED RATING Bridgestone Duravis LT245/75R16 M773 II
SUSPENSION TYPE (FRONT) Standard long-and short arm independent front torsion bar suspension
SUSPENSION TYPE (REAR) Semi-elliptic 2-stage multileaf spring
GROUND CLEARANCE, MINIMUM 9.1 in. LOCATION Rear Axle
BRAKE SYSTEM Power-assisted, Hydroboost brake-apply system, 4-wheel disc, 4-
wheel ABS
BRAKES, FRONT TYPE Disc SWEPT AREA 233 sq. in.
BRAKES, REAR TYPE Disc SWEPT AREA 133 sq. in.
FUEL CAPACITY GALLONS 39 LITERS 148
WHEELBASE 130.0 in. LENGTH 222.4 in. GENERAL MEASUREMENTS
TEST WEIGHT 6342 HEIGHT 76.8 in.
HEADROOM FRONT 41.1 in REAR 38.1 in.
LEGROOM FRONT 41.3 in. REAR 34.9in.
SHOULDER ROOM FRONT 65.3 in. REAR 64.7 in.
HIPROOM FRONT 64.4 in. REAR 61.8 in.
FRONT 60.9 cu.ft. REAR 56.28 cu.ft. INTERIOR VOLUME
*MAX. CARGO IS W/REAR SEATS
FOLDED DOWN COMB 127.18 cu.ft. *MAX. CARGO 137.4 cu.ft.

EPA MILEAGE EST. (MPG) CITY
Unregulated
HIGHWAY
Unregulated
COMBINED
Unregulated

Trucks with Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings over 8,500 lbs are not included in the EPA fuel economy rating system. Fuel economy
information on these models is generally not available because of wide variances in vehicle loading and operational conditions
between various customer applications.

Suburban Stopping:

BRAKE TESTING
TEST LOCATION: Chrysler Proving Grounds DATE: September 17, 2007

BEGINNING Time: 8:30 a.m. TEMPERATURE: 43.3°F

MAKE & MODEL: Chevy Suburban
Ton 4WD 6.0L SPFI BRAKE SYSTEM: Anti-lock


Phase I
BRAKE HEAT-UP: (Two 90 –0 mph decelerations @ 22 ft.sec.2)
TEST: (Six 60 – mph impending skid (ABS) maximum deceleration rate stops)


Initial Velocity Stopping Distance Deceleration Rate
Stop #1 60.3 mph 157.1 feet 24.88 ft/s2

Stop #2 60.3 mph 159.5 feet 24.56 ft/s2

Stop #3 60.2 mph 157.4 feet 24.73 ft/s2

Stop #4 60.3 mph 156.9 feet 24.94 ft/s2

Stop #5 59.9 mph 155.7 feet 24.81 ft/s2

Stop #6 60.1 mph 156.8 feet 24.81 ft/s2

AVERAGE DECELERATION RATE 24.79 ft/s2

HEAT SOAK (4 minutes)

Phase II
BRAKE HEAT-UP: (Two 90 –0 mph decelerations @ 22 ft.sec.2)
TEST: (Six 60 – mph impending skid (ABS) maximum deceleration rate stops)


Initial Velocity Stopping Distance Deceleration Rate
Stop #1 59.7 mph 155.2 feet 24.73 ft/s2

Stop #2 59.9 mph 157.7 feet 24.46 ft/s2

Stop #3 60.3 mph 154.8 feet 25.30 ft/s2

Stop #4 60.1 mph 160.5 feet 24.18 ft/s2

Stop #5 60.3 mph 157.5 feet 24.81 ft/s2

Stop #6 60.4 mph 157.9 feet 24.85 ft/s2


AVERAGE DECELERATION RATE 24.72 ft/s2

Phase III Yes/No
Evidence of severe fading? No
Vehicle stopped in straight line? Yes
Vehicle stopped within correct lane? Yes

OVERALL AVERAGE DECEL. RATE: 24.76 ft/s2

Projected Stopping Distance from 60.0 mph 156.4

Expedition:

BRAKE TESTING
TEST LOCATION: Chrysler Proving Grounds DATE: September 17, 2007

BEGINNING Time: 10:46 a.m. TEMPERATURE: 51.9°F

MAKE & MODEL: Ford Expedition 5.4L 3V 2WD BRAKE SYSTEM: Anti-lock


Phase I
BRAKE HEAT-UP: (Two 90 –0 mph decelerations @ 22 ft.sec.2)
TEST: (Six 60 – mph impending skid (ABS) maximum deceleration rate stops)


Initial Velocity Stopping Distance Deceleration Rate
Stop #1 61.0 mph 159.5 feet 25.09 ft/s2

Stop #2 61.2 mph 161.8 feet 24.87 ft/s2

Stop #3 60.4 mph 157.8 feet 24.90 ft/s2

Stop #4 60.3 mph 159.5 feet 24.50 ft/s2

Stop #5 60.4 mph 155.9 feet 25.20 ft/s2

Stop #6 60.9 mph 160.2 feet 24.90 ft/s2

AVERAGE DECELERATION RATE 24.91 ft/s2

HEAT SOAK (4 minutes)

Phase II
BRAKE HEAT-UP: (Two 90 –0 mph decelerations @ 22 ft.sec.2)
TEST: (Six 60 – mph impending skid (ABS) maximum deceleration rate stops)


Initial Velocity Stopping Distance Deceleration Rate
Stop #1 60.6 mph 157.1 feet 25.11 ft/s2

Stop #2 60.4 mph 160.7 feet 24.45 ft/s2

Stop #3 61.1 mph 151.8 feet 26.41 ft/s2

Stop #4 60.4 mph 163.0 feet 24.04 ft/s2

Stop #5 60.6 mph 165.0 feet 23.93 ft/s2

Stop #6 60.3 mph 170.9 feet 22.90 ft/s2


AVERAGE DECELERATION RATE 24.47 ft/s2


Phase III Yes/No
Evidence of severe fading? No
Vehicle stopped in straight line? Yes
Vehicle stopped within correct lane? Yes

OVERALL AVERAGE DECEL. RATE: 24.69 ft/s2

Projected Stopping Distance from 60.0 mph 156.8

 

[911jason]

Can you guys take your argument to a private message please?

 

[metaldrgn]

Looks like you posted duplicate stats for the expedition and suburban. Stopping distance and times look almost identical. I always reread and edit my posts. I haven't driven a vehicle with hydroboost but I have towed a few vehicles on dollies. Never had to panic brake though.

 

[Sterling Archer]

EL XP is nicer with better overall quality. It also handles like a 6k lb sportscar and not a 6k lb pickup.

 

[montecarlo31]

Looks like you posted duplicate stats for the expedition and suburban. Stopping distance and times look almost identical. I always reread and edit my posts. I haven't driven a vehicle with hydroboost but I have towed a few vehicles on dollies. Never had to panic brake though.

read closely....the Suburban has smaller brakes and is almost 500 lbs heavier.

EL XP is nicer with better overall quality. It also handles like a 6k lb sportscar and not a 6k lb pickup.

Facts or verbal diarrhea?

2007 was the latest comparo I could find from the same company to keep testing as close to equal as possible.

2007 Chevrolet Suburban 1500 LTZ 2007 Ford Expedition EL Limited
General
Location of final assembly Janesville, Wisconsin Wayne, Michigan
Body style 4-door SUV 4-door SUV
EPA size class Special purpose Special purpose
Drivetrain layout Front engine, 4WD Front engine, 4WD
Airbags Front, front side, side curtain Front, front side, side curtain
Powertrain
Engine type 6.0-liter V-8 5.4-liter V-8
Bore x stroke, in 4.00 x 3.62 3.55 x 4.17
Displacement, ci/L 364/6.0 330/5.4
Compression ratio 9.6:1 9.8:1
Valve gear OHV, 2 valves/cyl VVT SOHC, 3 valves/cyl
Fuel induction SFI, AFM SFI
SAE horsepower, hp @ rpm 366 @ 5500 300 @ 5000
SAE torque, lb-ft @ rpm 380 @ 4300 365 @ 3750
Transmission type 4L70 4-speed auto 6R 6-speed auto
1st 3.06:1 4.17:1
2nd 1.63:1 2.34:1
3rd 1.00:1 1.52:1
4th 0.70:1 1.14:1
5th NA 0.86:1
6th NA 0.69:1
Reverse 2.29:1 3.40:1
Axle ratio 4.10:1 3.73:1
Final-drive ratio 2.87:1 2.57:1
Indicated rpm @ 60 mph 1800 1600
Transfer-case model NV246 Borg-Warner 4417
Low-range ratio 2.72:1 2.64:1
Crawl ratio (1st x axle x low) 34.1:1 41.1:1
Recommended fuel Regular unleaded Regular unleaded
Dimensions/Capacities
Wheelbase, in 130.0 131.0
Length, in 222.4 221.3
Width, in 79.1 78.8
Height, in 76.8 78.3
Track, f/r, in 68.2/67.0 67.0/67.2
Headroom, f/m/r, in 41.1/38.5/38.1 39.5/39.7/38.0
Legroom, f/m/r, in 41.3/39.5/34.9 41.1/39.1/37.7
Shoulder room, f/m/r, in 65.3/65.2/64.7 63.2/63.7/67.1
Cargo volume, 3rd row seat up, cu ft 45.8 42.6
Cargo volume, 3rd row down, cu ft 90.0 (removed) 85.5 (folded)
Cargo volume, 2nd row down, cu ft 137.4 130.8
Ground clearance, in 9.2 8.7
Approach/departure/breakover angle, deg 16.7/20.9/NA 24.1/20.9/18.7
Load lift height, in 32.6 35.9
Base curb weight/as tested, lb 5745/5877 6053/6277
Base weight dist., f/r % 51.0/49.0 51.0/49.0
Payload capacity max/as tested, lb 1657/1523 1775/1551 (est)
GVWR, lb 7400 7828 (est)
GCWR, lb 14,800 15,000
Towing capacity max/as tested, lb 8000/7800 8750/8569
Fuel capacity, gal 31.5 33.5
Chassis
Suspension, front; rear Independent, double A-arm, coilovers,anti-roll bar; solid axle, coil/link, anti-roll bar Independent, double A-arm, coilovers, 36mm anti-roll bar;independent, multilink, airbags, 21 mm anti-roll bar
Steering type Rack-and-pinion Rack-and-pinion
Ratio 17.7:1 20.0:1
Turns, lock to lock 3.25 3.75
Turning circle, ft 43.0 43.9
Brakes, front 13-inch vented disc; 13.5-inch vented disc;
Brakes, rear 13.5-inch vented disc, ABS 13.1-inch vented disc, ABS
Wheels 20x8.5-in alloy 20x8.5-in alloy
Tires P275/55R20 Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza P275/55R20 Pirelli Scorpion STR
Load index 111S 111H
Performance
Acceleration, sec 0-30 2.8 2.7
0-40 4.0 4.3
0-50 5.9 6.0
0-60 8.1 8.7
0-70 10.5 11.5
0-80 13.8 15.0
0-90 18.4 19.4
Standing quarter-mile, sec @ mph 16.1 @ 84.9 16.5 @ 83.5
Braking, 60-0, ft 140 140
Lateral acceleration, g 0.69 0.69
Speed through 600-ft slalom, mph 55.5 55.1*
* electronically limited
EPA fuel economy, city/hwy, mpg
14/19 (est) 14/18 (est)
Price
Base price $39,860 $42,575
Options LTZ group, 3-pax 3rd row, pwr side steps, 6.0-liter, HDtrans cooling, 4.10 axle, rack cross bars, freight DRL, moonroof, reverse park sense, adj pedals, pwr quarter windows,tow pkg, navigation, pwr liftgate, Sirius, chrome-clad 20-in. wheels,rear load-level suspension, DVD ent
Price as tested $51,105 $51,080

 

[Sterling Archer]

Facts or verbal diarrhea?

Your sarcastic, passive aggressiveness aside....From my experience, FACT.

Up until just a couple of years (GM's newest models) GM interiors were utter shit. They SCREAMED CHEAP. Cheap materials, un-inspired design....

Take a long burb and run it side by side with an EL. The EL feels WAY lighter on it's feet and is less fatiguing to drive. This from a guy who drives 40k a year
an who has 183k on an 07 EB EL 4x4.

Flog them on a curving road and see which truck puckers your ******** first...

 

[FordandPolaris]

Man this argument took a couple of days off of my life.

 

[thr_wedge]

We cross shopped both. Looked at a Burb LTZ and Expy EL Limited. Bought the Limited. Interior, handling, and 3rd row power fold flat seats sealed the deal.

You have to drive both, internet arguing will only get you so far.

 

[RI-Matt]

Trying to make sense of all this data but a few things stand out to me.
The Expy has 66 less HP, weighs 400lbs more and has 3.73's not 4:10's so it makes sense its a little slower ( only about +/- 1/2 second )
Lateral g's and stopping distance is exactly the same.
GCWR and towing are higher and as tested $$$ is lower.

Not seeing any big advantage for the Burb especially when you throw in the 3rd row convenience.


2007 Chevrolet Suburban 1500 LTZ 2007 Ford Expedition EL Limited

Engine type 6.0-liter V-8 5.4-liter V-8

SAE horsepower, hp @ rpm 366 @ 5500 300 @ 5000

SAE torque, lb-ft @ rpm 380 @ 4300 365 @ 3750

Axle ratio 4.10:1 3.73:1

Base curb weight/as tested, lb 5745/5877 6053/6277

GCWR, lb 14,800 15,000

Towing capacity max/as tested, lb 8000/7800 8750/8569

Brakes, front 13-inch vented disc; 13.5-inch vented disc;

Brakes, rear 13.5-inch vented disc, ABS 13.1-inch vented disc, ABS

Acceleration

0-60 8.1 8.7

Standing quarter-mile, sec @ mph 16.1 @ 84.9 16.5 @ 83.5

Braking, 60-0, ft 140 140

Lateral acceleration, g 0.69 0.69

Speed through 600-ft slalom, mph 55.5 55.1*
* electronically limited

EPA fuel economy, city/hwy, mpg
14/19 (est) 14/18 (est)

Price as tested $51,105 $51,080




Matt

 

[metaldrgn]

read closely....the Suburban has smaller brakes and is almost 500 lbs heavier.



Facts or verbal diarrhea?

2007 was the latest comparo I could find from the same company to keep testing as close to equal as possible.

Get your facts straight. According to what you just posted, the Expedition has a 300-400lbs HEAVIER curb weight. Edmunds shows the Expedition EL(10 EB EL) as 340 lbs heavier than the Suburban (07 1500 LT). Brake size is only 0.1" smaller than the expedition or 0.376% smaller which is fairly insignifficant. The Suburban has larger pads in the rear which makes sense since when your towing something that's where you need the extra braking power in the rear so it's harder to lose traction. Also something that your test doesn't show is piston size and how many they are. If the piston total area is larger there will be more apply pressure on the rotors. I guess it would also depend on your brake piston size pushing the fluid too.

 

[metaldrgn]

Really all this is moot. Like thr_wedge mentioned it was amenities and feel that sold him. People on the Tahoe Forum say the same things about their Tahoes, Suburbans, Yukons, etc. Again I just like GMC/Chevy more because, from what I've seen, they make a more maintenance friendly vehicle and I like their looks/features, but I would like to have a 3rd gen expedition too someday. They are quite sexy.

 

[metaldrgn]

Just an example of not being mx friendly. Spark plugs cost $16 a piece at autozone vs $2 for one on the 07 Suburban 5.3L and $3.39 ea on the 6.0L. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Yp74JAZLY

That is not including the extra cost of getting the old plug out if it breaks which sounds like a common problem. Someone paid $650 to replace them http://www.expeditionforum.com/f40/07-expy-hesitation-during-acceleration-am-13734/

 

[Johnny Law]

Try putting an 8ft length of lumber in the back of the Suburban. With the second row folded down...

My '96 Suburban can do it so can my '11 Expedition EL. But the '11 Suburban I looked at wouldn't.

Not a big deal as I haul lumber in my Suburban now, but when the Expedition gets older it will take on Utility duty and being able to lay a 8x4 sheet of plywood in the back becomes pretty important.

The third row fold down is really nice. My Suburban rear seat is in my shop attracting mice.

 

[FordandPolaris]

Trying to make sense of all this data but a few things stand out to me.
The Expy has 66 less HP, weighs 400lbs more and has 3.73's not 4:10's so it makes sense its a little slower ( only about +/- 1/2 second )
Lateral g's and stopping distance is exactly the same.
GCWR and towing are higher and as tested $$$ is lower.

Not seeing any big advantage for the Burb especially when you throw in the 3rd row convenience.


2007 Chevrolet Suburban 1500 LTZ 2007 Ford Expedition EL Limited

Engine type 6.0-liter V-8 5.4-liter V-8

SAE horsepower, hp @ rpm 366 @ 5500 300 @ 5000

SAE torque, lb-ft @ rpm 380 @ 4300 365 @ 3750

Axle ratio 4.10:1 3.73:1

Base curb weight/as tested, lb 5745/5877 6053/6277

GCWR, lb 14,800 15,000

Towing capacity max/as tested, lb 8000/7800 8750/8569

Brakes, front 13-inch vented disc; 13.5-inch vented disc;

Brakes, rear 13.5-inch vented disc, ABS 13.1-inch vented disc, ABS

Acceleration

0-60 8.1 8.7

Standing quarter-mile, sec @ mph 16.1 @ 84.9 16.5 @ 83.5

Braking, 60-0, ft 140 140

Lateral acceleration, g 0.69 0.69

Speed through 600-ft slalom, mph 55.5 55.1*
* electronically limited

EPA fuel economy, city/hwy, mpg
14/19 (est) 14/18 (est)

Price as tested $51,105 $51,080




Matt

Another thing you have to factor in is peak torque and HP ranges. Expedition hits both marks at lower RPM's meaning it is available quicker. To me that is worth some power sacrifice. Man with 4.10 gears the Suburban must either have one hell of an overdrive or just scream on the highway...

Not to mention buying the Expedition saves you a whopping $25!!!

 

[GaryH2]

For me, the usable third row in the Expy is worth the price of admission.

I can't comprehend why the Suburbans hold their value so well when the third row wasn't as useful and (at the time) they only had 4 speed autos. Of course over the last couple years GM corrected those issues.

I agree that I have heard that the GM twins (Taco/Suburban) are easier to work on than the Expys.

I would take a Suburban if one appeared in my driveway, but swapping the Expy for one is another matter altogether.