Misfire count

[Bain64]

I'm wanting to find a misfire count on the expy, but the mode 6 TID's are limited on the 2003 as compared to later model years. Using 'OBD Car doctor App' and the Mode 6 function, I found data points labeled 'Manufacturer Specific' that I think may be misfire counts, as there are 8 component ID's for that TID.

Would you assume these are misfire counts by the data and the maximum value of 15616? Would Forscan better display this information?


I recently got a P0430 code, and have noticed an occasional mild-stumbling idle, so I'm wanting to eliminate misfires as a potential cause. If i should be starting somewhere else, please speak up.

 

[Bain64]

Answering my own question here, but this might help someone later or give you a push to try out Forscan. I finally got around to installing/connecting Forscan and it immediately showed me the misfiring cylinders, 6 and 8.I found that Forscan gives a much better description for all of the Mode $06 data.

Now onto fixing my problem.. The plugs are only 3 months / 1,000 miles old, but the cop's & boots might be original from 2003 & 212k miles ago. I'll pull the plugs first, and if torque, plug and boot still look good, I'll swap coil packs with 5 & 7 and go from there.

Who knows if curing the misfire will solve my p0430 (that hasn't returned since I cleared codes), but i figure it's a good start.

 

[1955moose]

You might want to replace just those 2 plugs instead of re torquing them. The plugs even fairly new can contribute to your misfire. Carbon and arcing builds around porcelain, not to mention the plug itself on the nose end gets a lot of punishment. Figure your in their already, why not? Good idea on coil swap around. If it turns out to be a bad coil, you know just change those 2 along with the eight boots of others. The boots break down when they get old, sorta like an older style spark plug wire does.

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[Bain64]

Hey Moose. Great thought on replacing the plugs, for the cost I would've done it that way had I thought of it before. I pulled coil and plug from #6, coil has primary resistance of 5.33k ohm and secondary resistance of 0.8 ohm, so no direct short from what other people are noting, and plug looked good. For now I swapped coil #6 with coil #1 to see if the problem follows. I left the other (sometimes) misfiring cylinder #8 alone for now, trying to only change 1 thing at a time and test again. Except for the grime, the boots looked and felt good, I am now assuming the boots are not original or they would be hard and brittle.

 

[1955moose]

Those reading are fine on the coil. Wished more members here would do the ohm readings, it's so simple. I'm betting you've got worn boots on those coils. Let us know how it turns out. What brand of plugs did you put in there? A lot of the plugs except Ford and Bosch seem to misfire.

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[Bain64]

Plugs are motorcraft, from recollection sp549,or something like that. I’ll get some miles in tomorrow and report back on the misfire

 

[Transporter]

Answering my own question here, but this might help someone later or give you a push to try out Forscan. I finally got around to installing/connecting Forscan and it immediately showed me the misfiring cylinders, 6 and 8.I found that Forscan gives a much better description for all of the Mode $06 data.

Now onto fixing my problem.. The plugs are only 3 months / 1,000 miles old, but the cop's & boots might be original from 2003 & 212k miles ago. I'll pull the plugs first, and if torque, plug and boot still look good, I'll swap coil packs with 5 & 7 and go from there.

Who knows if curing the misfire will solve my p0430 (that hasn't returned since I cleared codes), but i figure it's a good start.

I also have a 2003 EB Expy. What device did you use with the Forscan App/Program IE is it a simple OBDII BT or Wifi dongle? Was Forscan installed on a laptop or did you use an App with a smart phone? I have an older Big Banana OBDII reader and a newer OBDII BT dongle. I like the dongle because I can just leave it plugged in and get true live data. I can leave the Big Banana plugged in, but the cable and its larger body are in the way no matter where one puts it.

As for plugs, why chance it or bother taking one out and putting it back in? At $3 to $10 depending on if using Iridium or Platinum, it is easier and better to just replace any plug that is removed eliminating it as a possibility.

As for the COPs, if they are original ones that are 15 years old with 212K miles on them, it is long past time for them to go. The boot is no longer a good insulator and probably has micro cracks in it you can't see where the spark is occasionally shorting to the block causing a misfire. If I have a new COP and OBDII data says something is wrong with cylinder 1, I will swap, but if the COP has 30K or more on it, it is gone. COPs are not that expensive if one doesn't get them from Ford or an auto parts store (I use Ebay and Amazon to buy them by the dozen or 10 pack as the 5.4L uses the same COP as the 10 cylinder Ford motor). How do I know what is what, I track my COPs and Plugs on my smart phone using a simple Note. I have a note with the title of each car: Expy, T-Bird, Stang, Explorer on my iPhone and then I have a list of each cylinder with the mileage of when any COP or Plug was changed. Not a true Ford fan, but some how I even up with all Fords.

 

[1955moose]

Not a true Ford fan! 5 Ford's in your garage, and driveway, Transporter, were going to have to check you in to the Henry Ford clinic! I've been buying Ford's and Lincoln's since 1986. 3 mustangs, 2 Lincoln's, and my current Expedition. Next will probably be F150 Lariat 5.0.

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[1955moose]

Sorry only 4 for transporter, theirs hope for him. I don't know about you guys, but my Ford's always seem to get me home, even when wounded. That's reason enough to be a faithful.

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[Bain64]

Misfire moved from cylinder 6 to 1 after I moved the coil from 6 to 1. Two Motorcraft coils have been ordered for delivery Tuesday. I'm debating performing a similar test on the other misfiring cylinder (8), but might just replace it and go from there.

 

[Transporter]

Just a heads up, for what you probably paid for one of the Motircraft COPs you could have gotten a full set from the company that used to make the OEM ones. I have been using these for years without any issues from them. $29 for 8 even if one goes bad one is still mikes ahead price wise.

https://www.amazon.com/ECCPP-DG508-...1--152-1-0&dpPl=1&dpID=51dgiaCZ8CL&ref=plSrch

I use the performance high voltage spark model in our Tbird and have been very satisfied. I also use the ECCPP COP in the Pony and Explorer.
.

 

[TobyU]

P0430 is not an indication of misfires, it's a result of repeated misfires. This code is typically misdiagnosed as a bad oxygen sensor and many people waste money on those with no positive results.
It means the converter on bank 2 is not doing its job properly. It can possibly be an oxygen sensor but very rarely. You end up with a code PO420 0430 from driving too long with ignition misfires from Bad coils or plugs. The unburnt fuel loads up and damages the converter so it can't do its job as well even when the engine is running properly.
I have had great luck with the Chinese coils but who knows how the quality will be today versus three years ago or versus three years in the future. I do know the Motorcraft quality is not where it used to be. I put a set of the Chinese yellow ones on a V10 back in 2008 and they all lasted eight or nine years until I had one or two starting to misfire occasionally.
I always keep any old coils and I remove so I can have extras for test purposes or quick replacements. I have done a good number of sets off of eBay and haven't had any fail early yet but this is all been in the past 3 years.
I wouldn't risk the swapping individual coils here and there. I would feel more comfortable putting a whole new set of new Chinese ones in but as long as you monitor your misfire accounts it won't matter.
Even with brand new coils and plugs you won't get zero all the time on every cylinder. Occasionally just when the engine starts up or whatever or hitting bumps in the road the car will interpret it as a misfire. So after you get it running smoothly check the codes every couple of days and note down anyone's that you get misfires on. If you see a pattern of the same cylinder showing misfires every now and then that coil is suspect.
If you didn't drive too long and your check engine light wasn't flashing you probably didn't destroy your converter too badly. Sometimes when you get the misses figured out you won't get a code because then the converter can do its job because it no longer has a deal with unburned fuel which cools everything off and contaminates the catalyst. Sometimes though it's damaged thing converter to the point where it will still pop a code occasionally. It takes a long time for this code to show up as the catalyst system is one of the last ones to get checked by the computer. You can go into the readiness monitors on the scan tool to see if they're all completed to see if it's going to pop.
Not that this is recommended but it seems to have worked for me, cleaning the converter with isopropyl alcohol.
I had a 4.6 in a town car limo that I bought out of state and had to drive from Phoenix Arizona 1200 miles to get it home. It was running on 7 cylinders and I was planning on replacing the engine because I got a good deal on the car. Come to find out it was a simple fix so I didn't have to replace the engine but all the time the previous owner drove in my driving it damage the converter. It started popping on 0420 code right away. It would take 4-5 days for the light to come on after I would reset it because of my sporadic driving cycles.
I took the high concentration 90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol, and since I started using the ISO heet gas line dryer
Figuring it was even a higher concentration. I dumped three bottles in with a little less than a quarter tank of gas and drove it and kicked it down multiple X do really blow some fuel and exhaust through it.
It got better after the first time it would only pop on like every month or every other month. I think I did it one other time and the time I had the car it was always much better.
This might not work on simple engine misfires and it might even be worse for the converter. I think mine had positive results because mine was oil contamination on a converter catalyst.
The engine in the vehicle was purchased from a junkyard from a wrecked Town Car with 36,000 miles. The problem with the engine was that one of the rocker arm cam followers was just laying in the valve cover. I assumed it was just the right position when the car got hit and it popped out. Must have been a bad front end impact on the right front corner. The intake valve could not open so every time the piston went down on the intake stroke it was sucking a little bit of oil past the Rings and that was coating the catalyst in the converter. I got good results though from the cleaning procedure.

 

[Bain64]

The new Motorcraft coils arrive tonight. Toby & Transporter, I'd be interested to read more about the Chinese coil packs do you have any articles or sources I could read up on? I know Ford has to source their parts from somewhere, and why not ECPP, just the $28 price tag for all 8 scares me because it's almost too good to be true.

 

[Bain64]

I also have a 2003 EB Expy. What device did you use with the Forscan App/Program IE is it a simple OBDII BT or Wifi dongle? Was Forscan installed on a laptop or did you use an App with a smart phone?

I used this $20 OBD2 wifi dongle and installed Forscan on a laptop. There is also Forscan for mobile but I haven't tested that.

 

[TobyU]

I'm a fairly regular reader on Lincoln forums, Mustang forums and Ford truck forums & it seems at least 85 to 90% if not higher comments are people who have not had any issues with the coils being aftermarket.
Before they were cheap on eBay I was by Ford ones from the dealer at about 68- $72 each. Then I started getting GP Sorensen from Advance Auto Parts for either 29 or $39. They might have even had a lifetime warranty at the time. The local quick replacement with the lifetime warranty is what sold me on trying the cheaper brand. Fords were always top quality and I rarely saw one go bad under 130-150k but for less than half price I could always just keep an extra brand new one around or in the vehicle just in case I ever had it to swap one out and it takes less than 5 minutes to do on Town Cars and Mustangs.
I was three or four years behind even finding out they were selling cheaply on eBay. The first set I bought was in 2008 when they were down to around 8 to $9 a piece. Then they got even cheaper.
People really love to badmouth them at first because Fords had not yet started being made in China. Then I think it was around 2010-2012 then I read the fords were being made in China too so that blew a lot of wind out of the argument.
Now when you compare them online you'll see the people that want to Market there's is better quality talk about high quality copper windings or some other things. I'm not sure that it makes much difference as there's probably only three or four people or two or three factories that make all of them.
For such a drastic price difference though, there's no way I'm going to spend a lot more money unless I start having the aftermarket fail in under a year or two which I haven't seen happen. They are just too quick and easy to change.
I guess I make my parts purchase decisions based on three things: cost, quality, and difficulty of installation. If something is very hard to do the job over again then I will spend more money yes I think I can get higher quality.
There is an alarming trend today though that often no matter how much you willing to pay there is no really high-quality to be had. So it does take some research, Word of Mouth, personal experience... But then you have to realize you have to take a lot of that with a grain of salt and your own personal sampling may not be very accurate overall.
So normally I go with the cheap option until I get burned once or twice and then I usually write that style item off the list forever.
Follower on that topic I will recommend no one to ever by the eBay window regulators but the various off brands I'm eBay. I tried two of them, one for a Grand Am and a Plymouth minivan.
They were $36 a piece. The lifetime Dorman warranty one from O'Reilly Auto Parts was 79.99.
Neither one lasted over 45 days and I doubt was rolled up and down over 25 times. Absolute junk.
Dorman is definitely not the highest quality but least with a lifetime warranty they have some incentive to not make them crap. The Dorman lasted at least a year and a half in the Plymouth minivan until it had to be junked for other issues.
But my experience with coils are forwards has been just as good as OEM. The ones I bought in 2008 lasted at least 9 almost 10 years until the first one started to misfire and it was only occasionally.
I can only hope that the ones they been making the past couple of years and the ones are making now are as good a quality as those I bought back then.

 

[Transporter]

I used this $20 OBD2 wifi dongle and installed Forscan on a laptop. There is also Forscan for mobile but I haven't tested that.

I have that same Dongle but the BT version, I'll have to download Forscan and see what I can see. Thanks.

 

[Transporter]

The new Motorcraft coils arrive tonight. Toby & Transporter, I'd be interested to read more about the Chinese coil packs do you have any articles or sources I could read up on? I know Ford has to source their parts from somewhere, and why not ECPP, just the $28 price tag for all 8 scares me because it's almost too good to be true.

Why should a $28 price tag scare you? Ford can charge up to $125 for just one COP and AutoZone up to $50 for the exact same COP. Which means both are marking them WAY up. Why pay for the word Motorcraft on a part when the exact same thing without that word is cheaper and just as durable?

ECCPP (Epsilon Car Component & Parts Produce), Founded in 2000 is headquartered in Los Angeles, CA, ECCPP is one of the largest professional Car Component & Parts Produce brands in the automotive aftermarket in America today with the goal of providing all-round quality of automotive products, with great customer service and superior technical support.
The Taiwanese plant that manufactures their COPs used to manufacture several of the major automakers OEM COPs. There is a huge difference between Chinese quality and Taiwanese quality even though Taiwan is considered part of China.

I tried the lifetime warrantee COPs on Ebay/Amazon and got tired of the hassle of sending them back every 10 to 15K miles, it is a sales gimmick for them hoping you don't keep your vehicle. ECCPP has a one year warrantee which is 9 months longer then Motorcraft. But since I get 75K to 90K miles out of them, as I should, they go well over a year.

But again, at $28, what do you really have to lose trying them? Other then on cylinder 4 or 8 (hate changing those two, which happened to be the ones I had trouble with on the lifetime warrantee!).
.

 

[1955moose]

What was happening awhile back here on the forum, was quite a few members were experiencing bad new or almost new coils. That's where all the pro Ford or Motorcraft hoopla was about. Good news on you having good luck on the Chinese replacements. Was their any particular brand you bought. I tried to bring up a name but couldn't. It does make sense to keep a spare I vehicle along with 7mm 1/4 drive ratchet.

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[Transporter]

What was happening awhile back here on the forum, was quite a few members were experiencing bad new or almost new coils. That's where all the pro Ford or Motorcraft hoopla was about. Good news on you having good luck on the Chinese replacements. Was their any particular brand you bought. I tried to bring up a name but couldn't. It does make sense to keep a spare I vehicle along with 7mm 1/4 drive ratchet.

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I have had good luck with three different companies and would recommend them all. I will look them up tonight. Two of the brands are Red Dragon for high performance COPs and the other is ECCPP brand.

I am a little more nuts about getting stuck hundreds of miles from home as my driving needs are 2 to 4 hour one way drives with a return trip same day. I keep 4 spare plugs and 4 spare coils in the truck (mainly so I know where they are at and can keep track of how many I have at any given time (all four of my vehicles use COPs). So besides that, I keep a ratchet hand, extension with 7 and 10 mm sockets, plus my all in one for Ford Triton engines Snap-On swivel extension thin wall 5/8 spark plug socket in the Expy. After having a locking socket that was also taped come off and get stuck on the number 3 cylinder spark plug taking two days to remove by rigging up a push pull system, I bought the Snap-On one piece swiveling extension thin wall spark plug socket wrench attachment.
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[TobyU]

I have had sockets that want to stick but they stick on the plug from the inside not the outside on the head. I just use a piece of 3/8 fuel line about 8-10 inches long to stick the plug into then start then into the head. Then you can use a socket with no rubber plug holder inside.
I hate it when the extension pops out of the socket when I lift it up.