Is all the "fuel saving" tech really worth it in the long run?

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TobyU

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Cars now last longer than ever.

More ‘woke socialist’ nonsense right?

Lol

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2211617001

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/...the-tech-that-keeps-your-car-for-decades/?amp




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I think that trend of lasting longer is diminishing.
This is what I was referring to with the needed repairs to keep them "lasting".
They were lasting longer and longer until around 05-12 then many of them seem to need expensive repairs that the old ones did not.
I think people will keep the newer ones a shorter period of time and lots will sell of trade in when these repairs come up... which is probably exactly what the car makers want. I have a flock of old cars around here from an old 93 chevy truck with 305k to 03 Navigator with barely 100k, a 2000 Excursion with 49k, and lots in between. NONE have had even a valve cover off! I really doubt a 2008 5.4 3v will be running with its original timing components and 225k in 2029 like my 4.6 and 5.4s are.
 

carymccarr

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Plati

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Therein lies the question: no one's arguing that the better MPG and more power are not awesome, but do they actually save you money in the long run when you factor in the added complexity and maintenance costs?
...
Were you under the impression that the government mandated fuel savings … was done to save you money?
 

Plati

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So I read up a bit on this Cuyahoga River fire thing and yes it's been on fire like 13 times. ….
The "fire thing" is a headline … yes. River was polluted though.

quote from wiki
"The Cuyahoga River, at times during the 20th century, was one of the most polluted rivers in the United States. The reach from Akron to Cleveland was devoid of fish."

is that a better consideration than a fire thing?
maybe you never fished so don't care?

cant see the river for the fire?
 

TobyU

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I think there's a little lag in stats too.
The first one is aug 2018 so data prob put together late 17 or early 18. They say lowest average was 9 and highest 13 so that means nothing newer than about 2010.
The first signs I saw of bad engine trends was 05 but then again around 2012.
So maybe in 8 more years there might be a dip.
I think the rest of the cars are lasting well it's just engines are not repair free.
This might not change thir numbers overall. Many people will just have the 1800 repair done end chalk it up to necessary.
What would be a more interesting report would be repairs on 1000s of 2000 Expys up to 2015 and then 2010 up to 2025.
I would want actual repairs and not cost or repairs or cost of ownership.
This is why stats are general and don't always tell you exactly what you want to know.
Edmond's tries to show costs but still doesn't really hit it all.
It might just be an offset.
Remember the days wgen every car needed a new trans or it rebuilt sometime in its life? Was too common. Then they got a lot better. The majority of them for a while now have been going 225k on original. I don't like seeing the 6 and 10 speeds as I fear we will lose this.
Maybe it will just go to engine repairs instead of trans to keep car on n the road.
I just see some things going thir wrong way in durability and longevity and I say that's a bad thing.
 
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Were you under the impression that the government mandated fuel savings … was done to save you money?


Of course not, but this is the argument car makers and dealerships make all the time: "this car does XX MPG, think of the fuel savings!"

A lot of tax dollars are also wasted on government fleet vehicles that get "better gas mileage", because it looks more "green" on paper, whereas in reality these cars cost much more in maintenance than the money they save in gasoline. The new wave of pickup trucks with small turbo-charged engines come to mind: those puppies ain't gonna last like the naturally-aspirated V8's they are replacing.

The trend with electric and hybrid cars is no different: they cost an arm and a leg compared to equivalent ICE versions, but have shorter service lives on average. The typical Prius still can't beat a Corolla in long term ownership costs, as an example. As they age, Priuses become endless money pits (generator, batteries, etc); Corollas keep on driving with minimal maintenance till the body rusts through, lol!

All this sacrifice in the name of countering some obscure event called "climate change" that those who watch too much main stream media fear more than anything, better known as "weather" to the rest of humanity. Hence why the religion of "climate change" is a 400-billion dollar per year industry.

:rolleyes:
 
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Plati

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….

The trend with electric and hybrid cars is no different: they cost an arm and a leg compared to equivalent ICE versions, but have shorter service lives on average. The typical Prius still can't beat a Corolla in long term ownership costs, as an example. As they age, Priuses become endless money pits (generator, batteries, etc); Corollas keep on driving with minimal maintenance till the body rusts through, lol!

All this sacrifice in the name of countering some obscure event called "climate change" that those who watch too much main stream media fear more than anything, better known as "weather" to the rest of humanity. Hence why the religion of "climate change" is a 400-billion dollar per year industry.

:rolleyes:
I remember (don't know if anyone does this anymore) people standing on street corners preaching about God. Yelling all day long to anyone within ear shot about their religious beliefs. Usually holding a sign or wearing a placard.

This is all you are doing with your Climate Change denier "shouting".
Its just the 21st century version of the street corner preacher. Its your right, I guess.

...it's just weather! Ha.
That's taking it as far to the other extreme as the Green Nutcases.
 

Plati

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I think there's a little lag in stats too.
The first one is aug 2018 so data prob put together late 17 or early 18. They say lowest average was 9 and highest 13 so that means nothing newer than about 2010.
The first signs I saw of bad engine trends was 05 but then again around 2012.
So maybe in 8 more years there might be a dip.
I think the rest of the cars are lasting well it's just engines are not repair free.
This might not change thir numbers overall. Many people will just have the 1800 repair done end chalk it up to necessary.
What would be a more interesting report would be repairs on 1000s of 2000 Expys up to 2015 and then 2010 up to 2025.
I would want actual repairs and not cost or repairs or cost of ownership.
This is why stats are general and don't always tell you exactly what you want to know.
Edmond's tries to show costs but still doesn't really hit it all.
It might just be an offset.
Remember the days wgen every car needed a new trans or it rebuilt sometime in its life? Was too common. Then they got a lot better. The majority of them for a while now have been going 225k on original. I don't like seeing the 6 and 10 speeds as I fear we will lose this.
Maybe it will just go to engine repairs instead of trans to keep car on n the road.
I just see some things going thir wrong way in durability and longevity and I say that's a bad thing.
There has been a LOT more going on with design, manufacturing, quality control, cost containment, automotive engineering, competition, materials, technology … than just improved gas mileage goals over the past <insert a number> years. I know from a career at Xerox how much cheaper products were made in the 2000's than before that … to be able to compete on price. They don't last as long. The big thing now is that everything is disposable. The pressure in Engineering to continually make it quicker and cheaper is relentless. Its Capitalism. To try to be simplistic and pin it on gas mileage improvements is simplistic.

Having said that I have no actual numbers (I know you dislike facts and love opinion, don't have to restate that) but your "gut feel" is an interesting datapoint … of one.
 

TobyU

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There has been a LOT more going on with design, manufacturing, quality control, cost containment, automotive engineering, competition, materials, technology … than just improved gas mileage goals over the past <insert a number> years. I know from a career at Xerox how much cheaper products were made in the 2000's than before that … to be able to compete on price. They don't last as long. The big thing now is that everything is disposable. The pressure in Engineering to continually make it quicker and cheaper is relentless. Its Capitalism. To try to be simplistic and pin it on gas mileage improvements is simplistic.

Having said that I have no actual numbers (I know you dislike facts and love opinion, don't have to restate that) but your "gut feel" is an interesting datapoint … of one.
That's all very true. Many/most companies products are not intended to last as long since they compete on price point and expect you to buy more . Maybe it is about to hit the auto industry.
The main reason cars started lasting-being kept- longer was that the bodies were not rusting out with giant holes as bad and engines were going way over 100k with no major or internal repairs needed.
It's not that I dislike facts. I just know that they are not always an accurate predictor of the chance of outcomes for every person or for one particular person - me or you. While statistics or percentages of failures etc are factually countable numbers, they are still too all encompassing to guarrantee you or I both with our possibly very different from the norm situation will experience with the exact same product.
Even being fact, they only give you relative likelihood.
I only double, triple, quadruple down on my opinion in response to other comments that seem to use past numbers or overall industry ones to be as exact of facts as gravity or time....heck, even those can possibly be relative or the effects not the same as the established norm or rule.
I'm sure I'll be called out on this too and told I'm "confusing" statistics or facts with some other term so someone can feel better.
I will just maintain that most everything is or can be relative.

I have started to see a little more rust on cars but I think that is the salt and brine solution they are using on roads. They still last much longer than in the 70s-early 80s but it's a scary trend though.
 

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I remember when it was routine maintenance <like tires & brakes> to replace the muffler and pipes. My 2003 has gone 16 years without any of that! I did have to replace a few bolts that held it together and the rear hanger (which I did with hose clamps costing me nothing). I guess they went to stainless steel and thats why they last longer. I was always curious how that happened. Was it customer demand, government mandate, or the presence of the <expensive> CATS that drove that? Worth it whatever it was.

I used to worry about the rockers rusting out then one day I just said F' it! They are gone and I just don't care. Its my BEATER. Pretty soon I'm gonna have an open spot from inside to outside at the door bottom though.
 

carymccarr

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I just know that they are not always an accurate predictor of the chance of outcomes for every person or for one particular person - me or you. While statistics or percentages of failures etc are factually countable numbers, they are still too all encompassing to guarrantee you or I both with our possibly very different from the norm situation will experience with the exact same product.
Even being fact, they only give you relative likelihood.
I only double, triple, quadruple down on my opinion in response to other comments that seem to use past numbers or overall industry ones to be as exact of facts as gravity or time....heck, even those can possibly be relative or the effects not the same as the established norm or rule.
I'm sure I'll be called out on this too and told I'm "confusing" statistics or facts with some other term so someone can feel better.
I will just maintain that most everything is or can be relative.

Those are called outliers and they are part of the ‘all encompassing’ analysis...if they are complete anomalies or errors they would be eliminated from the data set. Additionally, the data set could simply point to a flat or tail heavy distribution.

FWIW, I bigly doubt anyone takes pleasure in watching your ‘confusion’ around statistics, facts & feelings.

Though I just gave you the title for a book. ‘My life...Confusion, facts & feelings’

You’re welcome.
 
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I remember (don't know if anyone does this anymore) people standing on street corners preaching about God. Yelling all day long to anyone within ear shot about their religious beliefs. Usually holding a sign or wearing a placard.

This is all you are doing with your Climate Change denier "shouting".
Its just the 21st century version of the street corner preacher. Its your right, I guess.

...it's just weather! Ha.
That's taking it as far to the other extreme as the Green Nutcases.


"Climate Change denier"... lol, that's original! o_O

Well, I guess there's a sucker born every minute. I strongly recommend you look into the science behind ice cores that they pull out of Antarctica to measure climate changes over millennia. What do they tell us about the weather in the long run? Also, check out the science of solar cycles and how they impact the Earh. The Sun is in full blast mode right now, by the way... sending much more heat energy our way than in recent past. The changing tilt of the Earth as it circles the Sun is also a fun fact to look at, as it shifts hot zones on the planet. It does this in a cyclical fashion every few thousand years, like clockwork. The magnetic poles shift is also another factor that influences "climate changes". Again, this is a cyclical and natural phenomenon. None of it has ANYTHING to do with humans, despite the money-grab socialist propaganda!

Do yourself a favor and look at these before you compare people like me to crazy kooks... because otherwise you are the ignorant "the end is coming" preacher at a street corner!


Have fun with your carbon taxes, they will surely "save the Earth" from your non-existing boogeyman. The Earth and the solar system do what the they have been doing for hundreds of millions of years, whether you accept it or not... Calling me a "denier" of your sect's climate gospel won't change the facts either.


(nice religious term, by the way! Who's the crazy religious kook, again?)

;)
 
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carymccarr

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"Climate Change denier"... lol, that's original! o_O

Well, I guess there's a sucker born every minute. I strongly recommend you look into the science behind ice cores that they pull out of Antarctica to measure climate changes over millennia. What do they tell us about the weather in the long run? Also, check out the science of solar cycles and how they impact the Earh. The Sun is in full blast mode right now, by the way. The changing tilt of the Earth as it circles the Sun is also a fun fact to look at, as it shifts hot zones on the planet. The magnetic poles shift is also another factor that "changes climate". None of it has ANYTHING to do with humans!

Do yourself a favor and look at these before you compare people like me to crazy kooks... because otherwise you are the ignorant "the end is coming" preacher at a street corner!


Have fun with your carbon taxes, they will surely "save the Earth" from your non-existing boogeyman.

I love when a dude on a car forum (who probably doesn’t even have a graduate degree let alone PhD in the sciences) think they know more than tens of thousands of actual scientists from reading a couple of fringe cherry picked ‘articles’.

Heck, our govt can’t even keep bridges from falling yet they’ve orchestrated a worldwide conspiracy involving trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of people...all keeping it a secret?

Mmmm k.

So great.
 

TobyU

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Those are called outliers and they are part of the ‘all encompassing’ analysis...if they are complete anomalies or errors they would be eliminated from the data set. Additionally, the data set could simply point to a flat or tail heavy distribution.

FWIW, I bigly doubt anyone takes pleasure in watching your ‘confusion’ around statistics, facts & feelings.

Though I just gave you the title for a book. ‘My life...Confusion, facts & feelings’

You’re welcome.
But if those outliers or anomalies are not eliminated because they are what you have had as your own personal experiences with a certain product then you really don't care what the published statistics show as quality for that product.
Do you chalk it up to just being lucky? Or do you think that possibly you use a product, maintain it, in a way different than most people so as to have a better, or poorer result from the publushed factual typical results.
The key word is typical. If you find that your personal experiences are the same as typical results and everything else then you would assume there is a great likelihood that situation will be the same for another new product or another brand you might try. But if you have a large amount of personal experience and data that goes contrary to the typical results for the entire pool across the entire country or even world, do you think it's smart to throw out and disregard your personal experience because the people in the know with all the numbers say otherwise?
I do not.
It's not confusion. It's just being willing to look at a small specific picture and not the overall one. As I've said before things are relative to each particular environment or situation.
If over a period of years you owned 15 different expeditions and you had exact numbers and length of part life and replacement and repairs Etc and your numbers differed greatly one way or the other in comparison to the establish published facts.... would yours be more correct or the published facts be more correct??
Does either have to be incorrect?

I assume there are people out there who buy a stick shift car and wear out the clutch in 25k because they don't know how to drive it and make the decision that stick shifts are delicate and never buy another one. They would be inaccurate in their assessment but for their particular situation it might be a fact that a clutch only lasts 30,000 miles so they might not want to buy any more.

I've already got the title for my book. I've been planning on writing one on how the world works.

Anyone with a large amount of personal experience who doesn't use the results of these experiences to form opinions or as indicators of future performance and only goes to official sources and looks up statistics or some so-called fact is certainly not using everything at their disposal to make the most accurate prediction or decision.

Maybe it's more thinking out of the box. Maybe it's seeing the big picture by sometimes focusing on the small picture.
 

carymccarr

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Maybe it's more thinking out of the box. Maybe it's seeing the big picture by sometimes focusing on the small picture.

No. It’s called indulging ones personal and cognitive biases instead of recognizing them and not placing too much weight in them.

It makes facing each day less mentally taxing though to think ‘oh that’s just a statistic, it won’t happen to me because XYZ [read: I’m much more special-er than others in those statistics].

It’s human nature and I’m not denying that we all do it. At the end of the day everyone makes decisions emotionally and then rationalize them.
 

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"Climate Change denier"... lol, that's original! o_O blah blah blah blah ….;)
So … since the earths climate has not remained static for the past 6 billion years … there is no way humans could have any impact on it? Does that apply to the ozone layer also?

Not everyone is an extremist unrelenting angry propagandist with no ability to consider any opinion that differs from their own. But that may be difficult for you to understand.
 

TobyU

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No. It’s called indulging ones personal and cognitive biases instead of recognizing them and not placing too much weight in them.

It makes facing each day less mentally taxing though to think ‘oh that’s just a statistic, it won’t happen to me because XYZ [read: I’m much more special-er than others in those statistics].

It’s human nature and I’m not denying that we all do it. At the end of the day everyone makes decisions emotionally and then rationalize them.
That is very true and I have seen lots of people rationalize their own behaviors for years. This is not specifically what I'm speaking of though and maybe that's for the miscommunication occurred or maybe you just don't believe it can happen differently.
It is human nature to rationalize one's own behavior to a point.
I am not saying knowing statistics because you think you're special and you just don't think it will happen to you. Tons of people do that every day when they throw caution to the wind about safety even things like not wearing a seatbelt for a quick trip only a mile or two from home.
I mean when you have empirical evidence even though it is only a much smaller subset of the group that others have empirical evidence on and almost the entirety.
If you have evidence that your personal numbers don't match the numbers that are of the whole group then without further research there's little way you can determine why this is.

I could give a fairly decent example with brake lines rusting out. There were some post about this recently but it's not a specific to this form as is one of my other forms which is more Town Car specific. Our trucks don't use stainless but the Town Cars started using stainless in 1998.

We could probably find out the overall lifespan of brake lines for a certain model or model period of vehicles.
This whole group has to take into consideration cars in warm climates that never see salt and also the worst Rust Belt states.

People are often told to stay away from 1990 to 1997 Town Cars because you will end up replacing brake lines. This is touted as fact.
The fact is the brake lines on those years is much shorter lived than the newer cars but for someone not to consider their own specific conditions could be doing them a disservice. They might not by a great 1995 or 97 at a great price for fear of having the added expense later of replacing all the brake lines which gets quite expensive if you're paying a shop to do it.
Someone who lives and many of the good States and keeps theirs in a garage will almost certainly get double the lifespan of the typical published factual results.

This is not hoping it won't happen because you're special. This is knowing that your conditions are different than other peoples. This is knowing if you've had a large amount of experience with the same types of engines and you haven't had the issues that other people do obviously you are doing something differently.

I think these can be two different things. It's not always cognitive bias. Sometimes it's just cognitive observation.
This is what I have meant from the beginning.

Maybe someone has found the super duper bypass toilet paper roll oil filter and uses Anlmsoils one thousand percent pure golden sapphire oil and they figured it all out. Maybe they never change their oil and get 300,000 miles of every engine they've had and they're on their 34th engine doing this.
I highly doubt this could ever occur but this person has no reason to believe that their 35th engine won't have similar results despite what any other statistics show.
I don't think it's cognitive or personal bias when you have a good deal of previous results to base it on.

I think I realize that what you're basing your comments on is that few people have enough experience or a sampled group to be able to form valid opinions that aren't simply cognitive bias. So they would be better served to listen to the published statistics.
For the majority of the population, you would be correct.
I'm just pointing out that there are people out there that have run fleets of vehicles that have had results that differ sometimes greatly from the norm.
 
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