48,800km (30,000mi) and $2,200 for Pads and Rotors Replacement Quote from Dealer

[20Expy]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to this forum/community and appreciate you all!

The problem with the brakes started on the 2nd year of ownership of our 2020 Expy Max (bought Dec of 2019). It started to vibrate under light to moderate braking from highway speeds (probably when rotors were cold). We for some reason didn't think much about it and stupidly didn't claim it under warranty when it hasn't yet expired. Plus, it only happens occasionally and during that time we were going back and forth with the dealer about the 21N08 cam phaser rattle recall for like months, so we had enough of visiting the dealer.

The vibration under braking went on both while manual braking AND while using adaptive cruise (we use it a lot, don't know if that has anything to do with it), but only occasionally and from the conditions I said above, so we just dealt with it until beginning of 2023, where we requested a brake fluid change (according to owners manual: every 3 years). Then, the dealer quoted us 2k for pads and rotors, because they are "warped" and refused to do the brake fluids because they look fine. We were skeptical, because if the rotors are warped, aren't they supposed to vibrate every time I step on the brakes, not occasionally under certain conditions (like cold rotors, light braking etc...)?

Recently (about 1 year ago), we did a lot less highway driving and did a lot more city driving at lower speeds, therefore also barely used adaptive cruise and when taking on the highway, the vibration magically stopped, smooth brakes again. We took it in 4th of Dec, 2023, for oil change and requested brake fluid change again. This time, they quoted us 2,2k for pads and rotors again, BUT this time they said that rotors are "scratched and has rust ridges around them, so we can't machine them down". Fair enough ig, because we live on the rust belt, but then, they say we only have 1 milimeter!!! of pad life left on both rear sets and front left pads. The front right has 3MM left which is still dangerously low if numbers are true. Is it possible though? Because that is crazy quick wear on those pads. We only have 30,000 miles on the clock and never towed before, barely even carried anything heavy. First 2-3 years, we did some mountain highway driving (from Pacific Northwest) at moderate speeds, last 1-2 years are mostly slow speed in the cities.

To be fair, one year ago Kal Tire did quote us once when changing over to winters, that the rear pads and rotors needed replacing for $600. They haven't asked us again since then when we changed tires again with them. Looking at the rotors, do you think they needed replacing? Or do the pads only need replacing. Any recommendations out there for pads and/or rotors if these do need replacing, or should we just stick to OEM parts? They don't seem to last long.

Here are some pictures of the rotors (Sorry for the terrible images, we don't have jacks and stands to remove the wheel to inspect):
Also, these images were taken right after driving for a little bit. Not sat overnight!
Rear right:


Rear right:

Front Left:


Front right:


Sorry for this LONG post, hope you guys don't mind.
Thank you all in advance for the responses! Anything is appreciated!

 

[GixxerJasen]

First thing I'd do is check the pads and see if they are BSing you there. That's the easiest thing to check right now. Then either do it yourself or find a good trusted independent mechanic. I'd have stopped using that dealer the moment they refused to do preventative maintenance work you asked them to do that was in accordance with the manual. No longer under warranty means no longer going to that dealer.

 

[Hellwig]

The rotors look fine to me. I wouldn't even bother to resurface them if it were me. Even with the rotor resurfacing services, an independent workshop should charge you $300 to $400 per axle.

 

[Hellwig]

First thing I'd do is check the pads and see if they are BSing you there. That's the easiest thing to check right now. Then either do it yourself or find a good trusted independent mechanic. I'd have stopped using that dealer the moment they refused to do preventative maintenance work you asked them to do that was in accordance with the manual. No longer under warranty means no longer going to that dealer.

So true. The brake pads on my RAM 1500 were replaced with more than 80k miles for the very first time.

 

[5280tunage]

seems like a rip off. You can order a 4 wheel set of great pads with various rotor options from someone like powerstop for far less than half that. yes, you do the work, but these are pretty easy to do, just remember to lockout the parking brakes first. have some good anti-seize on hand (I use the motorcraft high temp just for giggles) and lots of brake cleaner. If you know a little bit about doing the work, should take but 3-4 hours total.

Oh, and the factory rotors have a tendency to cement themselves to the hubs, I had to use a 2x4 and some serious alternating whacks to get them to break off.

 

[duneslider]

I will say the stock rear pads do not last a really long time on these. I can't remember when mine needed replacement but it was probably somewhere around 30-32k miles.

You can warp rotors at any mileage, so to say you have low miles so they can't be warped isn't right. I would suspect a rotor issue long before thinking the brake fluid was the issue.

I have had rotors turned that exhibited issues of being "warped" and the issue only goes away for a little bit. Sometimes it is just better to replace them. Warped isn't really a great term for what is going on, they rarely are "warped" and it is disc thinkness variability, uneven wear, or improperly bedded pads, etc.

 

[sixstring]

My 15 EL/max ate the rotors very quickly. every 10k miles or so. lots of vibration and steering wheel shake when braking. Ford doesn't use the best metal. I did buy a powerstop brake kit and had a local independent brake guy put the kit and it was fantastic. Never thought about brakes ever again on that vehicle. they also make a kit if you tow. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-K8026

 

[RacerBX1]

As others have mentioned go elsewhere. Ford rotors are notorious for what you are dealing with so replacing with Ford part you may or may not end up with the same results. The rust rim happens everywhere due to the brake pad never touching the rotor in that area. Our Expeditions are pretty much a 50/50 weight balance, so Ford equals the balance on front and rear brakes unlike most vehicles which are more front biased. Because of smaller rotors in the back but equal work the rears are going to wear out faster.
Brakes work best with the brake pad material embedded on the rotors (bedding). Brake pad material on rotor and brakes makes the best stopping. What you are dealing with and can be seen from your pictures is that some spots on the rotor have no brake material on it (the shiny spots). So as the rotor is turning you are getting good and bad brake a few times with each rotation. You can give bedding in a retry, but with your pad thickness I would suggest going to good place to get the work done. New pads, rotors and a fluid change. Then find a nice county road with no to little traffic and bed your new brakes in. You do this by getting up to 60 to 80 mph and JAM on the brakes just short of anti-lock kicking in but don’t come to a complete stop. Speed back up and do it again and again until your brakes are so hot that you are not getting a lot of stopping power when you hit them. Then drive a bit more without stopping to let them cool back down. You should see a grayish brownish material on the rotors which is good with brake material on your rotors. Getting brakes hot is the only way to do this. At times this process may need repeating. Shiny rotors = not good braking.

 

[Dahammer]

Adaptive Cruise Control will reduce brake lining because it uses the camera, mathematically calculates your distance from the vehicle in front of you, and uses brakes to maintain distance at all times. So, for example, if the car slows down in front of your vehicle, brakes are applied either gently or slammed.
Brakes are applied by the rear first and added shortly after the fronts. Think of your bicycle, rear 1st in breaking. If you apply front first, you will flip your bike over.

Rotor warp is a bad term to use. There might be high spots on the face of the rotor, and needs to be honed down.

As for me, when I have to replace pads, I also replace rotors and maybe calipers too. Why? I want my pedial to travel just like if the car came from a factory,

 

[20Expy]

Thank you all so much for the insanely quick replies. It was all greatly appreciated.

I will say the stock rear pads do not last a really long time on these. I can't remember when mine needed replacement but it was probably somewhere around 30-32k miles.

You can warp rotors at any mileage, so to say you have low miles so they can't be warped isn't right. I would suspect a rotor issue long before thinking the brake fluid was the issue.

I have had rotors turned that exhibited issues of being "warped" and the issue only goes away for a little bit. Sometimes it is just better to replace them. Warped isn't really a great term for what is going on, they rarely are "warped" and it is disc thinkness variability, uneven wear, or improperly bedded pads, etc.

So I am not the only one then! I was also wondering if your brakes squealed before they are completely worn, because I believe all pads have a squealer (wear indicator), that would squeal way before worn down to 1mm. Also wondering if you tow or haul heavy things or not, because we didn't at all. Our rear brakes also wear faster than fronts like yours according to the service before the latest service (latest service stated they're all at 1mm except for front right at 3mm). Kal Tire around that time also offered us to change the rear pads and rotors. Do you know when your fronts went as well?

Lastly, the fluid change was only requested because it was scheduled maintenance according to the manual. We didn't say anything about the problem to the dealer, but it was until we requested the fluid change, that they quoted us on 2k for "warped" rotors. Before that when we went to do oil changes and multi-point inspections, they didn't say anythings, so we were a bit skeptical.

 

[20Expy]

seems like a rip off. You can order a 4 wheel set of great pads with various rotor options from someone like powerstop for far less than half that. yes, you do the work, but these are pretty easy to do, just remember to lockout the parking brakes first. have some good anti-seize on hand (I use the motorcraft high temp just for giggles) and lots of brake cleaner. If you know a little bit about doing the work, should take but 3-4 hours total.

Oh, and the factory rotors have a tendency to cement themselves to the hubs, I had to use a 2x4 and some serious alternating whacks to get them to break off.

Yes, they said labor was $600 and $1500 (Canadian $ that is, forgot to mention) was parts. Even then, for $1.5k you can get some serious brakes for sure!

 

[20Expy]

My 15 EL/max ate the rotors very quickly. every 10k miles or so. lots of vibration and steering wheel shake when braking. Ford doesn't use the best metal. I did buy a powerstop brake kit and had a local independent brake guy put the kit and it was fantastic. Never thought about brakes ever again on that vehicle. they also make a kit if you tow. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-K8026

About pads, I recently saw a video from the channel Engineering Explained talking about mechanical attachments with the compound on brake pads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oIJixuvRoQ). Although the video is sponsored by NRS, IMO the channel is still quite scientific and trustworthy. In the video, it shows that the Ford OEM specifies the need of mechanical attachments in the brake pads for the 3rd Gen Expedition only, but the images (at 12:38) are mostly filled with that generation of cars only, not newer one so I'm suspecting it's an older image. Looking elsewhere, I still couldn't find if our 4th gen needs mechanical attachments or not, but assuming yes, because 3rd and 2nd Gens both need it.

I saw the brands Hawk and Powerstop recommended in our forums a lot, but I couldn't find if they have mechanical attachments or not. Do you know if your pads have them?

Thanks again for the reply!

 

[20Expy]

As others have mentioned go elsewhere. Ford rotors are notorious for what you are dealing with so replacing with Ford part you may or may not end up with the same results. The rust rim happens everywhere due to the brake pad never touching the rotor in that area. Our Expeditions are pretty much a 50/50 weight balance, so Ford equals the balance on front and rear brakes unlike most vehicles which are more front biased. Because of smaller rotors in the back but equal work the rears are going to wear out faster.
Brakes work best with the brake pad material embedded on the rotors (bedding). Brake pad material on rotor and brakes makes the best stopping. What you are dealing with and can be seen from your pictures is that some spots on the rotor have no brake material on it (the shiny spots). So as the rotor is turning you are getting good and bad brake a few times with each rotation. You can give bedding in a retry, but with your pad thickness I would suggest going to good place to get the work done. New pads, rotors and a fluid change. Then find a nice county road with no to little traffic and bed your new brakes in. You do this by getting up to 60 to 80 mph and JAM on the brakes just short of anti-lock kicking in but don’t come to a complete stop. Speed back up and do it again and again until your brakes are so hot that you are not getting a lot of stopping power when you hit them. Then drive a bit more without stopping to let them cool back down. You should see a grayish brownish material on the rotors which is good with brake material on your rotors. Getting brakes hot is the only way to do this. At times this process may need repeating. Shiny rotors = not good braking.

Oh, so these are the grayish, brown spots that you were talking about? That makes sense.

I was wondering if it was the rust the dealer was talking about, but it can't be because we have just driven the car. It wasn't parked overnight.

 

[20Expy]

Adaptive Cruise Control will reduce brake lining because it uses the camera, mathematically calculates your distance from the vehicle in front of you, and uses brakes to maintain distance at all times. So, for example, if the car slows down in front of your vehicle, brakes are applied either gently or slammed.
Brakes are applied by the rear first and added shortly after the fronts. Think of your bicycle, rear 1st in breaking. If you apply front first, you will flip your bike over.

Rotor warp is a bad term to use. There might be high spots on the face of the rotor, and needs to be honed down.

As for me, when I have to replace pads, I also replace rotors and maybe calipers too. Why? I want my pedial to travel just like if the car came from a factory,

Wow, that is so fascinating. I had no idea that radar cruise would pull the rear brakes first, before the fronts. I'm not doubting you, just curious how you know which brakes are applied first when using cruise, because I couldn't find any info on this elsewhere. It might be a factor for excessive rear pad wear.

I also heard the case with Volvos, where they pulled the brakes so hard when using adaptive cruise (either front or rear, or both, don't remember), that it would constantly destroy the rotors so the manufacture had to replace tons of rotors under warranty.

It's interesting that you mentioned bikes because when I ride my bicycle, I always pull both brakes at the same time, more biased to the front but modulating it obviously. If you are familiar with your bicycle, it is surprisingly hard to go over the bars for me personally. The only time when I pull more rear brake, is when I really need to slow down in corners, or while controlling speed in tight turns at slow speeds. But that's just how I ride, might be wrong, I don't know.

Thank you for the reply, I learned so much already just from joining yesterday!

 

[Hellwig]

View attachment 79551View attachment 79552
Oh, so these are the grayish, brown spots that you were talking about? That makes sense.

I was wondering if it was the rust the dealer was talking about, but it can't be because we have just driven the car. It wasn't parked overnight.

Not sure what type of brake pads are used on the vehicle. But when you replace them, you may try semi-metallic pads, which are "softer". It may help for your slightly uneven braking situation.

 

[duneslider]

Thank you all so much for the insanely quick replies. It was all greatly appreciated.


So I am not the only one then! I was also wondering if your brakes squealed before they are completely worn, because I believe all pads have a squealer (wear indicator), that would squeal way before worn down to 1mm. Also wondering if you tow or haul heavy things or not, because we didn't at all. Our rear brakes also wear faster than fronts like yours according to the service before the latest service (latest service stated they're all at 1mm except for front right at 3mm). Kal Tire around that time also offered us to change the rear pads and rotors. Do you know when your fronts went as well?

Lastly, the fluid change was only requested because it was scheduled maintenance according to the manual. We didn't say anything about the problem to the dealer, but it was until we requested the fluid change, that they quoted us on 2k for "warped" rotors. Before that when we went to do oil changes and multi-point inspections, they didn't say anythings, so we were a bit skeptical.

I do tow but every vehicle I have owned since abs and traction control became standard seems to wear rear pads faster than the old days. Another thing I have noticed is that with new cars, manufacturers tend to use cheap organic pads on the rear which also wear faster. I think they do this for a number of reasons (cost and they are quieter are some of the reason). Once switching to better pads, there doesn't seem to be as drastic of a difference with wear between the two. My expedition had about 60k miles when we totaled it and the fronts were still good. The replacement rears were still great also, I replaced with just a standard parts store ceramic pad and liked them.

 

[sixstring]

I saw the brands Hawk and Powerstop recommended in our forums a lot, but I couldn't find if they have mechanical attachments or not. Do you know if your pads have them?

Thanks again for the reply!

I really don't know. There were a couple of other metal parts besides the pads and rotors when i dropped them off at the shop.

Just remember that the expedition is a heavy vehicle. The max even more so. I had my rotors shaved 2x under warranty and then they wouldnt do it anymore. The dealer said this isnt a light vehicle. Im a senior and dont drive or brake hard. Ford just uses the minimum and cheapest to save money. I was getting steering shake and vehicle vibration at 10k miles at 20k miles and dealer fixed both of those. I put the brake kit on listed above 4.5 years ago and the brakes are still perfect.

 

[sesmith]

The pics of your rotos show some hard spots that would cause vibration. The rust they mentioned may be on the back side of the rotors, hard to see as the backing shields block your view. Typically this is caused by the slides on the calipers corroding and not allowing the pads to contact the rotor properly, allowing rust buildup.

You likely need pads and rotors, caliper brake hardware freed up and lubed or replaced. You may also need parking brake shoes replaced and the pivot assemblies freed up for the parking brake. This is all too common of a job up in the rust belt. This often all happens long before the pads are completely worn out.

2 k does seem like a lot but I do all my own work and haven't been a dealership.tech for a number of years now. It might be worth getting an estimate from an independent shop you trust. Have them do the fluid change when they do the brake work.

 

[GaryH]

Can't tell for sure from the photo, but is that a lip around the outer and inner edges? If so, you need new rotors.
Here's what a new rotor looks like across the surface.

 

[Motorcity muscle]

Can't tell for sure from the photo, but is that a lip around the outer and inner edges? If so, you need new rotors.
Here's what a new rotor looks like across the surface.
View attachment 79596

Just spots that the brake pads don’t touch