Interesting take on auto industry woes/falling new sales

[carymccarr]

You made the comparison of old to new

Nope. I said I enjoyed having a 450hp 6000lb, 7/8 passenger vehicle that gets 21mpg.

You then inexplicably went on for page after exhausting page about how a really fast car from the 80’s can kinda keep up with a giant suv from today.

 

[carymccarr]

I never once mentioned using your phone as a fax

I cannot even imagine what you are talking about lol.

 

[TobyU]

I cannot even imagine what you are talking about lol.

That was supposed to be as a facts finder...not fax.-autocorrect-

 

[carymccarr]

That was supposed to be as a facts finder...not fax.-autocorrect-

It doesn’t make any more sense as facts.

 

[TobyU]

I cannot even imagine what you are talking about lol.

That was supposed to be as a facts finder...not fax.-autocorrect-

Nope. I said I enjoyed having a 450hp 6000lb, 7/8 passenger vehicle that gets 21mpg.

You then inexplicably went on for page after exhausting page about how a really fast car from the 80’s can kinda keep up with a giant suv from today.

In your first statement you didn't say anything about the weight of the vehicle or the number of passengers but I won't cut and paste it for you.

Once again, it does not kind of keep up with. It beats it.

Remember my original comment when you started posting Factory horsepower numbers for the Grand National is that you'd be hard-pressed to find a turbo Regal that was in Factory original set up.

My overall and only main point was that tons of 86-87 Regals are running around better faster that any stock Expedition or Navigator and these get 23 miles per gallon on the highway.

You're the one that had to take it off into exactitudes and the pedantics of every single word and statistic a factory levels.

We didn't even discuss other obvious things like there are plenty of things a navigator does much better than any Buick Regal.

I would enjoy traveling with over one person much more in a Navigator or Expedition because they can open the door themselves and get in. Plus look at all the extra people with the third row!
Not to mention it'd be a lot safer Towing something.
I've always thought it looks terribly funny to pull any type of trailer with a car even though they make hitches for them.

And you certainly couldn't get Factory leather seats in a Grand National , they did however make them. Very, very rare option and I've seen them in and 83 Regal in Sandstone beige I believe was the exterior color.
Also saw a very odd Factory original T-type that had a stainless steel gas tank on it that the owner said something about a CNG option and this was a new one to me but I never really bothered to research it or if I did I forgot what I looked up.
I really have forgotten more than most people have ever known about turbo Buicks.

I don't rant and go on and on and on when people don't contradict me with things I know not to be true.

Anyone who looks at factory or numbers for turbo Buicks from years ago and determines that's how fast they are....will be astonished when I see How They Run on the street in real life.
Just a few years ago the Viper boys thought they could beat the Grand Nationals. That didn't happen.
A Viper might beat one with 120000 original miles that's never even had a spring clean up, has an oil-soaked intercooler and leaky intercooler hoses, and running on cheap gas so it pings badly when you get into the factory boost and kicks in a bunch of not counts and then timing retard but the average show car quality one you're going to see cruising the streets will absolutely spank a Viper. Then we must also mention that if you do this from a 20 or 25 mile per hour roll the ass whooping is even more extreme.

Trust me, I used to chase them down and race them back in the late 80s and up until around 92 and most of them are bone stock in the area. I had a hot rod 67 GTO that would eat a stock one or even a slightly modified one even from a 25 mile per hour roll.

I hated 5.0 Mustangs with a passion because every person that drove them, I called them Mustang Boys, thought they were hot shit and had a fast car. The damn things ran like 15.5to 15.7. That's not even quick let alone fast.

So I would make a U-turn through six Lanes of traffic to go chase down a Mustang if he so much as looked at me.
Then the Grand Nationals were quite a bit faster than Mustangs and they were few and far between so I liked to race those too.
My favorite thing to do was get beside them and start staring at their Fender badge the one that says Grand National intercooled. I would point at it and when they would say something to ask me what I was meaning I would tell them "I don't see nothin grand about it".
Ah, good times. I never did get beat by any of them.
Then, later on after I decided to turn to the dark side and get one. I made sure that it would beat that car.
Am I a hypocritical? Not really. When the car is first came out and I saw the first commercial on TV I knew I wanted one. When I was a fresh driver driving my mom's car one day I asked if we could pull into the Buick dealership and we did. There were three of them sitting there in the parking lot next to each other at something like $17,900. I really wanted one but there's no way at that age that I could swing that kind of money.
So I started out with a free 73 Buick Century, then moved on to a 68 LeMans, then got the 67 which was an absolute show car inside outside underneath and under the hood.
At the time I didn't really see the need for a grand national because my car was faster and I was continually modifying and building it.

But in a few short years they were really starting to put the power under the hood for normal everyday drivers and normal people not the superstars at the racetrack.
Companies popped up all over the company that specialize in Turbo Regal parts.
Yes, the big names like Kenny duttweiler her running below 8.5 second quarter mile but that took tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.
These companies around the country had normal customers who drove these cars to work that still had the factory 3.42 rear end that we're running 10.5s.
That's when I knew I had to have one. You could build the old muscle cars to be fast but pretty soon they became trailer Queens with horrible Street ability and high RPMs and terrible gas mileage.

So in a way it was kind of the first step of technological evolution of cars getting to where they are even better today. They even have special nodes and valet keys. You can get in a demon and drive the car cross country if you want or get the tires warmed up or put on another set of tires out of the trunk and crank off sub 10-second quarter-mile all day long.
Well, actually only wants it most race tracks because then they'll ban you for not having the proper equipment.

Absolutely amazing that the factory made a car that was so fast it's illegal by NHRA or any other race track rules to even drive it down the track because it's so fast.

The Ford Thunderbolt was a badass car being a factory race car with no warranty but the demon and Hellcat, unbelievable!
Having said that though for every Hellcat you can show me I can show you a T-Type Regal that runs just as fast if not faster and does it on six cylinders with only 231 cubic inches.

 

[carymccarr]

In your first statement you didn't say anything about the weight of the vehicle or the number of passengers

Fair point.

When posting on an expedition forum thought, about an expedition/navigator, its safe to believe that other members would at least have a basic understanding of the general size and occupant capacity of a expedition/navigator.

Apologies.

 

[TobyU]

It doesn’t make any more sense as facts.

You were jumping my shit about your thought that I said it was wrong or something like that to use your phone to look up information on things and to get facts.
I don't recall ever saying that. I mentioned doing a crash course or skimming some web pages to get some data that's posted but I already covered how that is very inconsistent.

 

[TobyU]

I guess I mistakenly assumed you understood the general size and occupant capacity of a navigator.

Apologies.

And when I said that you made the comparison of old to new and you came back with the nope response about enjoying a large SUV with horsepower Etc...

I was referring to when you said you had owned cars without these enjoyable features and you have owned modern cars with them.

I was assuming when you said you had cars without these features that you meant older cars since you then used the word modern in the next comment

 

[TobyU]

When I posted on an expedition forum, about an expedition/navigator I mistakenly assumed you understood the general size and occupant capacity of a expedition/navigator.

Apologies.

How could I have since I've never ridden in one. Just like those seats! I couldn't possibly understand or even comprehend what a massage seat is like in an automobile since you said I've never had a car with them installed.

 

[carymccarr]

I was assuming when you said you had cars without these features that you meant older cars since you then used the word modern in the next comment

That’s what you get for assuming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carymccarr]

You were jumping my shit about your thought that I said it was wrong or something like that to use your phone to look up information on things and to get facts.
I don't recall ever saying that. I mentioned doing a crash course or skimming some web pages to get some data that's posted but I already covered how that is very inconsistent.

And now it makes even less sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carymccarr]

How could I have since I've never ridden in one.

You’re on an expedition forum and you’ve never ridden in an expedition?

 

[TobyU]

That’s what you get for assuming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assuming was just a poor word choice since you love to argue about previous quotes and specific word usage.
I was referring to when you made the comparison of old vs new by saying you had owed cars without the features and have owned cars with the features. I guess you were saying you like cars with the features better and that's what you by now.
I was referring to Cars 8 to 10 years or so old and I guess those were the old cars that don't have those features. You use the word modern and that's a synonym for newer. This is where my comment of you bringing up old vs new comparison came from.

 

[TobyU]

You’re on an expedition forum and you’ve never ridden in an expedition?

Depends on whether or not your post was Expedition and or Navigator or -Expedition or Navigator-, or Expedition and Navigator.

Just being pedantic. I've never ridden in a navigator, just driven them.
Which this thought process in and of itself can be an exercise in pedantics, specifics, OCD, personal opinion, common use, etc.

Is riding the same as driving? Many people would say there's a definite distinction. When you drive a vehicle are you riding in it?? That's a little more subjective but maybe less to some people.
You're certainly not running along beside it and you're not on the roof so you're not riding on it. But if you ride in the trunk of a car that would be like riding in the back of an SUV which I've done under a large tarp to sneak into the racetrack without paying money.
It really wasn't an SUV. It was a giant Suburban which is really more of a just Utility Vehicle. Not a whole lot of sport to those old models.
They really should have called them PUV for personal utility vehicle since most utility vehicles were or are commercial in nature.

But when you go for a drive do you also go for a ride?
You can't be driving if you're riding and you can't be riding if you're driving...or can you?
Dum da dah... rrrrhat da da da da da daa da circus, dat dat da da da da dat dat afro.....
circus afro circus afro....
polka dot polka dot polka dot afro!

This is the size and capacity of navigators I'm accustomed to.




Now picture rolling up in one of these with a about 20 midgets in circus clown afro attire and let them come piling out the door one after the other one while you're blaring this song! It would be just as funny with a bunch of short little kids but it'd be hilarious if they were all midgets.

There's certainly something wrong with me.

 

[Adieu]

It really wasn't an SUV. It was a giant Suburban which is really more of a just Utility Vehicle. Not a whole lot of sport to those old models.
They really should have called them PUV for personal utility vehicle since most utility vehicles were or are commercial in nature.




View attachment 35519

Now picture rolling up in one of these with a about 20 midgets in circus clown afro attire and let them come piling out the door one after the other one while you're blaring this song! It would be just as funny with a bunch of short little kids but it'd be hilarious if they were all midgets.

There's certainly something wrong with me.

I suspect "sports utility" was coined to mean "easily haul your **** out into the field"... or perhaps even simpler yet. Government titles on light trucks, at least those with roofs, call em utility class. Someone coined "sport" because it sounded better for marketing than "civilian" to denote a model that had somewhat improved regular use amenities over a work-utility model.

 

[carymccarr]

Assuming was just a poor word choice since you love to argue about previous quotes and specific word usage.
I was referring to when you made the comparison of old vs new by saying you had owed cars without the features and have owned cars with the features. I guess you were saying you like cars with the features better and that's what you by now.
I was referring to Cars 8 to 10 years or so old and I guess those were the old cars that don't have those features. You use the word modern and that's a synonym for newer. This is where my comment of you bringing up old vs new comparison came from.

I certainly didn’t mean a car from the last millennium.

 

[carymccarr]

Depends on whether or not your post was Expedition and or Navigator or -Expedition or Navigator-, or Expedition and Navigator.

Just being pedantic. I've never ridden in a navigator, just driven them.
Which this thought process in and of itself can be an exercise in pedantics, specifics, OCD, personal opinion, common use, etc.

Is riding the same as driving? Many people would say there's a definite distinction. When you drive a vehicle are you riding in it?? That's a little more subjective but maybe less to some people.
You're certainly not running along beside it and you're not on the roof so you're not riding on it. But if you ride in the trunk of a car that would be like riding in the back of an SUV which I've done under a large tarp to sneak into the racetrack without paying money.
It really wasn't an SUV. It was a giant Suburban which is really more of a just Utility Vehicle. Not a whole lot of sport to those old models.
They really should have called them PUV for personal utility vehicle since most utility vehicles were or are commercial in nature.

But when you go for a drive do you also go for a ride?
You can't be driving if you're riding and you can't be riding if you're driving...or can you?
Dum da dah... rrrrhat da da da da da daa da circus, dat dat da da da da dat dat afro.....
circus afro circus afro....
polka dot polka dot polka dot afro!

This is the size and capacity of navigators I'm accustomed to.


View attachment 35519

Now picture rolling up in one of these with a about 20 midgets in circus clown afro attire and let them come piling out the door one after the other one while you're blaring this song! It would be just as funny with a bunch of short little kids but it'd be hilarious if they were all midgets.

There's certainly something wrong with me.

You can almost hear your liver screaming for mercy.

 

[TobyU]

You can almost hear your liver screaming for mercy.

Nah, it was just late in the evening. I don't drink alcohol at all.
I do tend to get slap happy though.

 

[TobyU]

I certainly didn’t mean a car from the last millennium.

There were a few fairly feature-packed cars but most occurred right in the last 10 years of that millennium.
Like the Mercedes I mentioned that with a push of the button for the keyfob would roll up all the way those and close the sunroof. That's a sweet feature. And once you've had it it really sucks to go back to a car that doesn't have it.

It's kind of like once you have DVR on your TV you never want to go back to having to watch live TV. I'm a person who can't stand to watch a commercial. It infuriates me. So we just started recording every last thing so we could skip every commercial.

I have said many times that it was right around 1996 or so that they've pretty much got cars and car engines figured out. Then we had that lovely Sweet Spot honeymoon. For a good number of years that cars were lasting much longer, engines going a quarter of a million miles without ever even having a valve cover off, no leaks and drips like the old days, no you all use between changes, not rusting out like they did up until and through the 80s...
They were just doing great! Yes, the prices had gone up with inflation but at least you were getting more life expectancy for the money you spent so you are able to keep cars longer so your cost per year actually went down.
I remember people buying cars and trucks back in the mid-seventies that had giant rust holes through them in three to four years. You could put your fist through holes in the fenders.
That's why a lot of people got into the habit of getting a new car every 3 years.

There's definitely kind of like timeframes and waves we're certain features become prominent or take over.

Think about in the old days and cars didn't have power steering or power brakes and they were just options. You can even order cars with or without. Then pretty much all cars had them.
Then the special option packages came in where you pretty much got cruise control and delay wipers and other things all as part of a package.
Things like AC coming with 10 and glass.
Power windows power door locks power driver seat.

Then around the late nineties you saw cars adding extra power ports as we no longer called them cigarette lighters or lighter sockets because smoking was out.

Then, high-end cars got navigation systems built in which is a weird story of evolution of laws and regulations in and of itself but that's a different story.
Then touch screens become more popular and integrated stereos and to touch screens and information centers along with Bluetooth and USB charging ports.

Heated and even cooled seats got much more popular around this time too.

Then there's the Adaptive or smart cruise control with auto braking and then the collision avoidance systems with auto braking and then Lane deviation warnings along with auto steering back into lane.

I find that a 99 to 2000 vehicle is often fairly Advanced though and has most all the convenience and features many people need. Certainly not a 2000 base model Ford Taurus or Focus or whatever they were making at that time
But a 99 or 2000 Cadillac or Lincoln Town Car is quite a nice, luxurious vehicle with plenty of comfort and convenience features.

If you want some of the newer technology you only have to go up to around 2005 to 2008 to get that.

It just depends on what each person wants but it's annoying to me that if you're going to buy new nowadays it's hard to find anything that's not jam-packed with stuff that a lot of people don't care about, will even use, or even want to be on their cars.

 

[TobyU]

I suspect "sports utility" was coined to mean "easily haul your **** out into the field"... or perhaps even simpler yet. Government titles on light trucks, at least those with roofs, call em utility class. Someone coined "sport" because it sounded better for marketing than "civilian" to denote a model that had somewhat improved regular use amenities over a work-utility model.

I think you're right that it was just a better marketing term using sport. I find that far more people actually bought the earlier large SUV's to pull trailers and use for more utility purposes than they did carrying kids to soccer games or transporting gear.

The Suburban was the vehicle of choice for many years at the race tracks for hauling cars on trailers.

We have to remember to that the Broncos and Ramchargers and K5 Blazers were also SUVs. Just not really marketed as such back then.
The utility aspect and or convenience might have been lower since they were only two door vehicles.