Oil analysis as a predictor for cam phaser/timing chain/cam/follower issues?

[inmanlanier]

I have a '12 EL XLT with 67,000 miles on it. Other than leaking front struts right at warranty expiration that Ford would not warranty and the tow/haul button that recently fell apart, it's been an excellent vehicle.

One of my buds who is in the business and was religious about oil changes had a worn follower and cam on his 2010 at around 70K miles. When the repair was done, other issues were noted on the chain as well. I've read all the concerns with the issues; it appears one of the contributing causes to the mess may be plugging of the oil passages that feed the valve lubrication and phasers - according to the local joint that is well practiced in these repairs, typically the passenger bank forward is where you see issues more than anywhere else (purportedly the oil flow starts drive side front, goes to the rear of that head, then crosses over and flows front of passenger side).

I run synthetic. I've run 5W-30 and 10W-30 oil in my expedition. I run typically 15K miles on the oil. (oh here come the screaming meemies!). This practice is based on prior use of synthetics at extended drains with analysis and my bud's research (Nuclear Power diesel expert). We've never experienced oil issues with these intervals. SE Florida is also a environment where we don't see extremes.

I've just sent my first sample to be analyzed to Blackstone (results not back yet).

Has anyone on the forum had oil analysis that was done that gave them signs of pending failure or beginning wear of any of the items in the header?

Does anyone perform the analysis as a means to do so? I would imagine iron would possibly tell us of cam/follower/chain wear. What about material composition of the phasers and their wear component?

Thanks in advance. Please constrain comments on my lack of intelligence based on the oil weight or intervals I choose. Please share your thoughts and experience.

 

[jeff kushner]

While several members have sent their oil out for analysis, I do not believe anyone has been able to steer this information into being a predictor of contra-indications.

I have owned 3 Expys and long ago chalked up failure of oiled parts to be by chance, with varying results.

jeff

 

[JExpedition07]

5W-30 is fine but with 15k oil changes I don’t have much to contribute here LOL.

 

[1955moose]

Well as one of the top screaming meemies here, you answered your own question. If these motors had larger passages, and a better oiling pump, your 15k interval would be fine. But the fact that they don't, dirt and debris from older oil, will plug things up. The early 05/06 models were worst, but all the 3 valve Triton's are vulnerable to plugging up. Your analysis from Blackstone will probably show it's ok. But that doesn't fix your immediate problem. Members here that have used either semi, or full synthetic, and changed at 7,000 or less, usually don't have as many problems that ones that don't. I hope I'm wrong, and let us know how it turns out.

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[JExpedition07]

Well as one of the top screaming meemies here, you answered your own question. If these motors had larger passages, and a better oiling pump, your 15k interval would be fine. But the fact that they don't, dirt and debris from older oil, will plug things up. The early 05/06 models were worst, but all the 3 valve Triton's are vulnerable to plugging up. Your analysis from Blackstone will probably show it's ok. But that doesn't fix your immediate problem. Members here that have used either semi, or full synthetic, and changed at 7,000 or less, usually don't have as many problems that ones that don't. I hope I'm wrong, and let us know how it turns out.

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Well said moose, all Fords newer engines with Variable Cam Timing are prone to oil flow and or supply issues, especially with poor maintenance. Any amount of reading in the F-150 forum will show plenty of threads on 3.5 EcoBoost, 5.0L V8, and 4.6& 5.4L V8 timing set issues. Clean oil is important!

This isn’t limited to Ford, GM has plenty of known issues with their VVT and AFM as well.

 

[inmanlanier]

Passages being blocked may be due to poor filtration or introduction of foreign material; modern day quality filters are just starting to be efficient at their job approaching 15K miles. The passages that purportedly are being 'blocked' are FAR, FAR greater in size than the particulate matter filtration size in today's systems. I've yet to see objective evidence as to cause of failures of the parts, however anecdotal data does suggest a lower pressure at the front of the passenger cylinder head. Less frequent changes to oil is not poor maintenance, provided the oil is still doing it's job (viscosity and additive package effectiveness). This has been proven over and over and over by oil analysis.

Thanks, Mr. Kushner for staying on topic? Anyone else?

 

[JExpedition07]

Ford calls for a max interval of 7,500 mile oil changes with Motorcraft synthetic blend oil and filter. Ford doesn’t recommend longer oil change intervals for a 2012 Expedition. 15k is exceeding the factory maximum interval by 100%. I think Ford knows what intervals work best on their engine. After all they do test their engines and have engineers work on this stuff, pretty proven if you ask me.

An oil analysis won’t be able to tell you timing components are having issues.

 

[1955moose]

When I was a kid, I used to get 4 days out of 1 pair of tidy whities. Front, flip, then inside out, and flip. 4 days!

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[jeff kushner]

Now that the guys who know have chimed in, I'll say that whiles it's convenient to think oil passages closeup similarly to a radiator channel, they just don't do that without lots and lots of dirt. Any half-clean oil is going to flow w/o clogging up passages but let's keep in mind that engines are heavily "engineered" with goal of cost savings. The engineering in a perfect world has real world consequences when the "just enough", isn't enough due to some other issue cropping up.

Now, today, "cost savings" is calculated to include lower customer issues while saving weight/cost of each component in each assembly. It does no good for them to get a oil pump for free from the supplier if it causes massive warranty costs so all this is quantified both in monetary and cost production terms.

You didn't want comments bout your oil change intervals so I won't......but you do realize that filter goes into bypass in your engine, prob at 8000 or so? That known, it still takes a lot of abuse to beat a V8 to death, a lot more than 70K.

jeff

 

[inmanlanier]

Aye, Vey! Sometimes I wonder.

Anytime you folks wish to opine on topics with or without data on topics not related to what is respectfully asked, please do so somewhere else.

I'm simply trying to see if this topic has been addressed. I've seen two affirmative comments regarding how "An oil analysis won’t be able to tell you timing components are having issues". Can anyone provide the basis for these remarks? Here's what I mean by that.

Engine blocks are made of iron based alloys or aluminum based alloys; hence why iron is a main component in the oil analysis. I believe that camshafts are also still iron based due to it's superior wear resistance. I saw photos of my bud's 2010 that used the Ford oil changed at the Ford intervals, religiously performed. One of his rockers showed significant material loss as well as the corresponding cam lobe. Do you think that iron went and hid as blockage in the oil passages that fed it?? C'mon people, try and be a little reasonable here. OF COURSE the iron wear would have been higher.

On topic, please - any other input?

 

[1955moose]

You've obviously know that these along with other engines are prone to a failed upper end part failing, even with a religious oil change schedule. Their are so many variables. How was the vehicle broken in? Was it ever run a quart or more low on oil during it's life. How severe was the load pulled with vehicle, did cooling system fail at any point? Etc. I could go on and on. But in the 4 plus years I've been here at Expedition Forum, one thing keeps popping up time after time, not changing oil on the 7,500 or less recommended Ford interval, even with full synthetic, members reported more problems, than ones that owned vehicles since new, and did their services on time or sooner. I've never read one member that I can think of that made it to the 300k plus club by ignoring the fluid cleanliness. I know you want cold hard engineering data, but numbers and breakdowns are for real. Can one guy that pushes his 05 Expedition with 20 k oil changes go to over 300k, with no galled cam followers/lifters? Or have a cam phaser never act up and start sounding like a Diesel? Sure, but the odds are generally against you.

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[inmanlanier]

Can you just please let it go? I'm being respectful. Please try on your own part. I don't wish to go down that path. You are entitled to your opinions. I don't have to agree, but I respect it. You are part of the large population of folks that think mileage (and perhaps color of the oil) is everything about the oil. I'm part of the not so small population that has concluded that we can go beyond those paradigms. Both are OK, but you continuing to rub it in my face is not OK.

Rather than continue to try and convince me you are the all-knowing of oils and maintenance, just please respect the fact that there are many other intelligent people on the planet who may choose to do things differently than you want them to.

 

[ManUpOrShutUp]

You asked for experiences/anecdotes, but want scientific data. Several people shared their experiences. No, no one has scientifically established that oil analysis is a valid predictor of engine failure within these engines.

 

[1955moose]

With that we let this thread come to an end. I wasn't trying to rub anything in your face, just stating what's happened to numerous members here. It's your SUV, best of luck to you sir.

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[inmanlanier]

I did NOT ask for anecdotes. I simply asked what folks have done with regard the use of objective data and oil analysis in the prediction of subject failures. That's a far cry different than asking people to piss on my parade since I choose different bases for my maintenance schedule. Go back and read. I even specifically asked for those of you that wish to convert others not to try and do so.

I guess it comes down to the GODS of 'we know it all' with no basis. The GODS that demean, condescend, and pick on others who may choose to not necessarily agree with what they opine, regardless of the basis.

What a shame it came to this. I simply wanted to see if anyone had gone here. I did not wish to try and match wits with those that are so omniscient, regardless of their bases. The GODS win! I give up.

 

[inmanlanier]

OK - how about a reset. I just got a nice private apology from one of the above dudes (I'll let him mention who he/she is if so inclined). I'll now apologize for my post immediately above this one; as much as I try and let it go by me, sometimes my button gets pushed as well.

So... back to the topic - if anyone has used the data of oil analysis to help them determine early signs/precursors of failure for the subject post items, please let us know.

Like Jeff Kushner, I believe the design is not as robust as it should be and the failures are multi-causal (or as he says - random). There are many causal factors that can start the failure (a few of which I have no control over since I took ownership of the vehicle at 24K miles). I am hoping that regardless of cause, I may be able to see something coming in advance and preclude/minimize the consequences in the unfortunate situation the failure may be happening on my vehicle.

respectfully apologetic... Inman

 

[ManUpOrShutUp]

I did NOT ask for anecdotes. I simply asked what folks have done with regard the use of objective data and oil analysis in the prediction of subject failures. That's a far cry different than asking people to piss on my parade since I choose different bases for my maintenance schedule. Go back and read. I even specifically asked for those of you that wish to convert others not to try and do so.

I guess it comes down to the GODS of 'we know it all' with no basis. The GODS that demean, condescend, and pick on others who may choose to not necessarily agree with what they opine, regardless of the basis.

What a shame it came to this. I simply wanted to see if anyone had gone here. I did not wish to try and match wits with those that are so omniscient, regardless of their bases. The GODS win! I give up.

You got your answer, but you keep belaboring the topic because you don't like the answer: No one has scientifically established that oil analysis is a valid predictor of engine failure within these engines. Now stop being such a ********* and move on. No one is going to have a discussion with someone who continues to be such an ******* anyway.

 

[JExpedition07]

I’ll just leave this here. Not trying to be a “God”, but the guys who work on these engines and Ford have a pretty good idea what’s going on. Not going to convert you clearly, just offering info on the subject which you seek to avoid. Again no one has concluded oil analysis can predict timing set issues. Unusual noises are normally first indicator.

Oil is what the VCT system operates on and is the blood of an engine. It’s important!

 

[Plati]

A header is a tubular exhaust manifold. Don't think your Expy has that. Even if it did, no engine oil analysis would predict wear on that.

Just sayin

 

[JExpedition07]

A header is a tubular exhaust manifold. Don't think your Expy has that. Even if it did, no engine oil analysis would predict wear on that.

Just sayin