But very few manufacturers do a very good job of accommodating different varieties of taste.
Interesting take on auto industry woes/falling new sales
- Thread starter JExpedition07
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See, now you're just being an arrogant snob. I never once stated I couldn't afford new vehicles. I stated I am cheap and don't wish to pay for them. I don't enjoy it.
I enjoy saving money as opposed to cutting more of it into a newer vehicle.
The conversation with you does seem to be about enjoyment of vehicles and Creature Comforts.
I don't have back issues so I don't see the need for a massage in a car. If I'm getting a massage chair I want to close my eyes and rest and probably take a nap, not something I really should be doing in a car.
Some people have back or neck issues and this could greatly increase the comfort of driving but I won't be arrogant or condemn them for this.
You're back to your facts again on the Buick horsepower and speed. Lol
That's highly laughable. Obviously you don't have any experience or have not been a member of the Buick turbo Regal world
Not only were they grossly underrated on the power, it's pretty much impossible to find one that's still at stock levels. It was impossible 5 years after I made and especially impossible now. There are so many turbo Regals out there with well over 600 horsepower that that has become the norm and not the exception. They had these cars running 8.46 second quarter mile back in the early 90s.
So when you do what you do, and based on facts that you can look up, you are not getting anywhere near the real picture. You are getting Wikipedia or published horsepower stats from Factory cars. A turbo Regal would gain over 1.5 seconds in less than 30 minutes and $5 in modifications.
I would bet any amount of money that if we go out and get a bunch of brand new Expeditions with their twin turbos and the same number of Turbo Regal and line them up and raced... almost every Regal, if not all of them, would walk right away from the expedition's.
I have been in the tirbi 3.8 world far too long to put up with anyone else saying otherwise.
I'm not arguing at all about these Comforts needs or wants. I've simply repeatedly asked what features are so important or so enjoyable that it makes worth paying more for a new car versus buying one that's 5 8 years old? If a person simply says it's no big deal I just want new cars then that's fine. Their preference.
But other than about two things that you mention no one has said anything of why they like these feature so much are new cars.
About the keys. I guess you haven't read those post so we can ask members here but it is common, all too common because it doesn't happen with a car with a key in the ignition... For a couple to be riding in a vehicle and one of them drop the other person off. If that person happens to have the key in their pocket then depending on which car they're driving the car will either die or the car will continue running until they shut the vehicle off and then they will have no way to restart it unless they have their backup key and they are at home. This has been a major issue an inconvenience for some people so basically had to get a tow or had to get a ride home to get the other keys or wait for the other person to show back up with the key. This does not happen in a car with the key that in the ignition. No matter who gets in or out as long as the key stays in the car the driver will be able to turn it off and restart it as many times as they wish.
Hopefully I explained that clearly enough so you know what I'm talking about now.
It's happened to a good number of people.
But it seems others want to be arrogant and condemn or criticize others for those particular beliefs. I am simply asking people who have or want to purchase these items why they enjoy them so much.
carymccarr
Full Access Members
nobody said it was necessary. ANOTHER strawman from you.
No. you'll just rant endlessly about why they arent 'necessary'.
I know. Facts, BOO!, right?
The factory HP from the regal was 250. Lets add 25% so account for them being 'grossly underrated' and you're still at 150HP under the Navi.
But sure. Here's a 600HP Navi that will destroy any stock Buick.
Goalpost moves ARE fun!
And you were given a short list. You then took that list and argued (unsuccessfully) that those things shouldn’t be enjoyable.
No matter how upset you get and try to convince me not to...I will continue to ENJOY my massage seats, STOCK 450hp engine, included service with pickup/dropoff (and loaner) et al
Its VERY common? Lol
You have a good answer to this:
Many people are saying it eh?
Sounds familiar.
Either way, my phone would never be in someone elses pocket.
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carymccarr
Full Access Members
You've written post after post explaining why none of these things people enjoy on newer vehicles are worthwhile.
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OP
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JExpedition07
That One Member
Here I am over here trying to figure out what the hell a Buick has to do with a Lincoln truck.
carymccarr
Full Access Members
You infer about three things or more to every one thing I say. I'm not trying to convince anyone that these things aren't necessary or that they shouldn't buy them. I have just asked two or three times for people to give me their input and explain what features they really really like and why they like them so much or enjoy them ablnd if that's why they buy newer vehicles.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't buy newer vehicles or that they shouldn't want need or enjoy certain features I'm just trying to poll people and see how many people think they're necessary or who even cares.
I have only stated that they're unnecessary or not worthwhile for me personally. I even said in the last post that someone with back problems might get a great deal of comfort out of a massage or heated seat. But yet you're totally overlooked those statements and makeup things that you think I meant with what I said.
Then you want to go and argue about the turbo Buick and pull up a 600 horsepower SUV. Why don't we just go with the trackhawk because it's faster than all of them and it's bone stock.
My point was that the majority of SUVs and especially the one you mentioned with the horsepower ratings are Factory stock. There are some people that do like a 5-star tune and that gives a marginal Improvement but not a great deal. Finding a turbo Regal that isn't modified is about like finding a 65 Mustang and good original condition with original paint or with the original floor pan. Lol
Not many in existence.
And we can just end the discussion about turbo Buick right there when you start quoting stock horsepower numbers and estimate 25% for underrating. As I said, I don't believe you have a lot of long-term experience in the turbo Regal world. I'm not faulting you or condemning you for that as there's only a certain percentage of people who do but please don't grab a few random statistics from the Internet or take a short crash course scrolling through a few pages and act like you're an authority or know much of anything about turbo 3.8s.
As I have said before, with enough money you can make anything fast but grabbing a handful of Turbo 3.8s matched against the handful of new twin turbo expeditions and Navigators will yield a bunch of SUVs in the rearview mirrors.
That's simply all there is to it.
Even with both vehicles in bone stock trim a Buick Grand National or any other turbo Regal or the 89 turbo Trans Am with a 3.8 Buick motor in it all running faster quarter mile time any faster 0 to 60 then a 3.5 Expedition. Motor Trend has the Expedition at 14.8 which puts the Grand National at least three car lengths ahead.
At those kind of speeds it's right about one car length for every .2 of a second.
I've been down the dragstrip many times and I don't think any car I ever ran was slower then a 13.7 and most were much faster.
So let's just move on to bickering about something else because there will be no ******* in my boot about turbo Regals. It's either raining or it's not.
Only reason I brought it up is because he was boasting about an expedition having 450 horsepower and getting 21 miles to the gallon. I was just stating that a turbo Regal was faster and got better gas mileage in 1986.
Nobody's bothered to bring up the point about the rolling up all your windows and closing your sunroof from your key fob on a 1990 Mercedes. That's a heck of a convenient feature.
Is a 90 Mercedes considered a modern car or not??
He threw out that modern word a couple times this is where we would have to clarify.
Some people considered anyting after the 60s or 70s to be a modern car. If you comparing it to a Model A or a 49 Ford then those are pretty modern. Other people will consider anything from the late 80s and up modern because they had fuel injection AC was almost standard power windows were super common Etc. So what exactly determines whether it's modern or not? Or is it simply a matter of time? Is anything under 10 years modern? Anything under 5?
Just pointing out that some of these features have been around for 30 years and some cars had features even new cars of today do not.
I just wish we could pick and choose more of the features we want or don't want. I understand some things would have to go along with others because if you're going to install the technology to do certain things you might as well do the others that go along with it. But the fact that they jam-pack most of the newer cars, at least anything nice, with everything they can... Annoys and actually drives away some potential customers.
So, has anyone here ever had the issue with any automobile with a push button start where you forgot the proximity key fob or someone else had it in their pocket or purse and got out of the vehicle when you were driving it?? I've read a good number of posts on the Lincoln forums where people have had this happen.
And while I'm still irked that you had the gall to even approach me with numbers or facts about Turbo Regals after I brought up the subject.... riddle me this-
Even and bone stock Factory showroom forum, how does the 450 horsepower expedition or Navi get beat by around 8 tenths in the 1/4 when...
" Regal had almost 1/2 the horsepower, less torque and is slower than a Navigator."
Your words.
Did you mean slower than a navigator if it were traveling at 30 and the Navigator were traveling at 60? Because that would be a non disputable fact.
Most everything else was just inaccurate assumptions.
Even and bone stock Factory showroom forum, how does the 450 horsepower expedition or Navi get beat by around 8 tenths in the 1/4 when...
" Regal had almost 1/2 the horsepower, less torque and is slower than a Navigator."
Your words.
Did you mean slower than a navigator if it were traveling at 30 and the Navigator were traveling at 60? Because that would be a non disputable fact.
Most everything else was just inaccurate assumptions.
carymccarr
Full Access Members
If you’re talking GN the Navi is MUCH faster. If you’re talking stock GNX they are essentially the same 0-60.
Being wrong really gets to you.
Interesting.
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carymccarr
Full Access Members
And when people answer "I enjoy features XYZ". Do you say "Oh cool. Maybe someday I'll have a car with those features!"
Nope. You panic and post over and over again about how those are really bad features that MANY PEOPLE have had problems with and nobody wants them especially you.
Honestly lol
Once again you are incorrect. Where are you looking up your so-called facts or information?
Once again you are incorrect. Where are you looking up your so-called facts or information?
carymccarr
Full Access Members
Easily available anywhere. Here’s road and track and car and driver.
Now. Tell me more about how awful using my phone as a key is LOL!
I look forward to more unhinged ranting about how a car from 3+ decades ago is just about as fast as a giant SUV today.
Soooooooo relevant lol
So going along this crazy line but I never said anything about the GNX. How much faster do you think a GNX is than a standard GN or a turbo Regal T-Type for that matter? Are you aware that all 86 and 87 T-Type Regals with the turbo 3/8 are just as fast as a Grand National?? Many people do not know this. Again, how much faster do you think a GNX is then a Grand National in bone stock Form? Now my second question... What is the quarter mile time of this Navigator you keep referring to? Because I wanted to make sure I was being accurate here so I looked up the quarter mile time of a 2019 Expedition and a 2019 Navigator. The Navigator is slower which is expected because it's a heavier vehicle.
Also, as I said because I don't expect you to have a great deal of knowledge about the intricacies of the Buick turbocharged engines... Let's note that the 84-85 Grand National cars are called hot air cars and are a full second 1/2 slower then 86-87 cars. Maybe this is where you're getting your numbers. 84 and 85 ran in the 15s which are pretty much for The Navigators run and a little slower than the expedition.
Let me further explain so we can get this right. I'm not going to allow you to quote and actually about turbo Regals!
It is my thing. It is my wheelhouse.
We must note that due to being turbocharged cars and being lower quality control in the late 80s that speeds buried a little more than they do today but, if you take 10 brand new 3.5 Expeditions and run them 50 times at the drag strip you also get more variations and those cars then you would if you ran brand new Challengers or Mustangs. It's just how turbocharged cars work.
If you did a quick Google search you might see them saying Grand Nationals ran 15.2 to 15.9 but that's only 84 and 85 hot air cars. It is common knowledge that the 86 and 87 cars ran 14.0 to 14.2 but occasionally you will see a spec of 13.7 to 13.9 because there were a few that down into the High 13s.
Let me clarify what hot are meant so you won't have to look that up. The hot are cars blue hot air into the plenum and the 86 added an air-to-air intercooler with a plastic fan spinning off the harmonic balancer to cool the intercooler which is mounted right in front of the balancer plus it had a scoop and a shroud assembly that funneled air from underneath the middle of the car below the bumper into the intercooler.
So again oh, what are the quarter mile times of a 3.5 stock Expedition or Navigator? Some people generally refer to 14 seconds but Motor Trend shows a 14.8 for an expedition and the first thing I pulled up for a navigator shows 15.5 or something.
14.0 to 14.2 is quicker than 14.8 and 15.x and in a quarter mile race that's a good three car lengths.
I normally never actually use the words you're wrong to a person on the forums.... but in your case since you do it all the time I will certainly make an exception!
The sad part is you think you know everything about any topic that comes up.
You can be the authority on buttery soft leather massaging seats because I'm the authority here on turbocharged Buicks.
You may not enjoy or have any need for a 30 + year old grandpa's car the same way I have no need for a massager in my auto seat
But I won't try to tell you how those seats work because I have little to no experience with them ...
And you won't tell me a thing about Buick Grand Nationals, T-types, or GNXs that I don't already know.
Also, as I said because I don't expect you to have a great deal of knowledge about the intricacies of the Buick turbocharged engines... Let's note that the 84-85 Grand National cars are called hot air cars and are a full second 1/2 slower then 86-87 cars. Maybe this is where you're getting your numbers. 84 and 85 ran in the 15s which are pretty much for The Navigators run and a little slower than the expedition.
Let me further explain so we can get this right. I'm not going to allow you to quote and actually about turbo Regals!
It is my thing. It is my wheelhouse.
We must note that due to being turbocharged cars and being lower quality control in the late 80s that speeds buried a little more than they do today but, if you take 10 brand new 3.5 Expeditions and run them 50 times at the drag strip you also get more variations and those cars then you would if you ran brand new Challengers or Mustangs. It's just how turbocharged cars work.
If you did a quick Google search you might see them saying Grand Nationals ran 15.2 to 15.9 but that's only 84 and 85 hot air cars. It is common knowledge that the 86 and 87 cars ran 14.0 to 14.2 but occasionally you will see a spec of 13.7 to 13.9 because there were a few that down into the High 13s.
Let me clarify what hot are meant so you won't have to look that up. The hot are cars blue hot air into the plenum and the 86 added an air-to-air intercooler with a plastic fan spinning off the harmonic balancer to cool the intercooler which is mounted right in front of the balancer plus it had a scoop and a shroud assembly that funneled air from underneath the middle of the car below the bumper into the intercooler.
So again oh, what are the quarter mile times of a 3.5 stock Expedition or Navigator? Some people generally refer to 14 seconds but Motor Trend shows a 14.8 for an expedition and the first thing I pulled up for a navigator shows 15.5 or something.
14.0 to 14.2 is quicker than 14.8 and 15.x and in a quarter mile race that's a good three car lengths.
I normally never actually use the words you're wrong to a person on the forums.... but in your case since you do it all the time I will certainly make an exception!
The sad part is you think you know everything about any topic that comes up.
You can be the authority on buttery soft leather massaging seats because I'm the authority here on turbocharged Buicks.
You may not enjoy or have any need for a 30 + year old grandpa's car the same way I have no need for a massager in my auto seat
But I won't try to tell you how those seats work because I have little to no experience with them ...
And you won't tell me a thing about Buick Grand Nationals, T-types, or GNXs that I don't already know.
carymccarr
Full Access Members
Agreed. A stock GN will get whooped by a stock Navigator in 0-60 and depending on altitude and weather the QM is a toss up. Who cares. We’re comparing a grocery getter SUV to the equivalent of a Dodge Demon.
How sad is it that the hottest domestic production car from then can barely keep up with a giant SUV of today?
It would be fun to put a GN up against a stock Demon or a 2020 Navi against a 1986 Suburban to watch both of the oldies get toasted lol! At least that would be relevant....
Now. Tell us more about how phone as a key is the end of humanity please.
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carymccarr
Full Access Members
Yet you’ve droned on for post after excruciating post outlining just how much you don’t want or need them...
Even though you’ve never had them.
I never once mentioned using your phone as a fax finder. I think I'm in it mentioned a quick internet search. Never said that was a bad way to do it but what I will mention once again is that the sources are often not consistent in their numbers.
Stock GNs didn't run 15.9 second quarters they didn't even run 15s.
At least not the Grand Nationals people mean when they refer to Grand Nationals.
Pretty much everyone who mentions a turbo Buick or a turbo 3.8 means the intercooled version which are the last two years and not the first two. To be precise they did make some other turbos earlier on but once again nobody considers those.
None of the intercooled turbo Buick ran 15 second quarters.
Any website oh, source, or screenshot that says they do is incorrect.
It is common knowledge among car aficionados and in the Buick world that they ran 14.0 to 14.2 with some outliers occasionally cracking into the 13s and some running as low as 14.5
The GNX was a full second faster which wasn't really that impressive to me.
They should have pulled out more stops and made it faster than just one second faster.
Those are known to run 13.0 to 13.2 but you will find stats that show them running 12.9.
I have only been talking about quarter mile ETs and not 0 to 60 and not 1/8s. 1/8 mile was unheard of when I started drag racing and then all the tuners went into that. Never did like it.
Quarter mile or zero to a hundred is what I have always enjoyed.
I only found one reference that showed an expedition running a 14 second quarter but it didn't say it was 14.08 just said it does the quarter mile in 14 seconds. That could be 14.1 or 14.9.
I did find a good number of other references that showed 14.8 and a little over 15 for the Navigator.
I don't feel the need to screenshot everything and post it like you do because you're always doing that in your face haha I'm right thing.
If I post something on this forum it is true.
If I say something it is true.
Often things I say are my preferences so those are also true statements.
If I don't know for certain, I will certainly say I don't know or I think or when I don't even have a clue as to the range I will say I will have to look it up.
I certainly don't know everything, but the things I do know ...I know for a fact and I'm not going to put up with your argumentative ******** about turbo Regals that I know like the back of my hand.
So you can just go sit your ass down in your comfortable massage chair because there is no winning and there is no out doing me on turbo Buick 3.8s.
We could have a little test on Grand National and GNX history and facts... Whie you could look them all up on your phone and find the answers in 8 to 10 seconds each. I already know them.
I've known them for 30 years.
You made the comparison of old to new in a very demeaning and kind of sarcastic way by calling it sad but another way to look at it is look how far we've come... when a huge overweight luxury SUV is just almost as fast as the fastest American-made production car in 1987.
Even then we were lucky to have cars that fast in 87! I used to collect and maintain the old muscle cars because after 70 4 horsepower is pretty much gone. Cars became big Landyachtz and they neuter the horsepower ratings and nothing was fast anymore.
They kept styling cool and the Mustang GT's were peppy and the IROC Z28 Camaros were cool styling but none of them had any balls and they were not fast.
Back in the mid eighties we thought for sure that muscle cars and horsepower was dead.
When the 93 Z28 came out with the LT1 I said in a few years when the warranty is out this will be the car to have and modify.
Then they did it one better with the LS1 engine being even stronger, more powerful, durable, and less problematic.
These did get a good following of aftermarket tinkerers but they didn't have to become the car to have because horsepower came back large-and-in-charge.!
I will admit but I never thought I would see it happen again in my lifetime.
After the oil embargo and the gas crisis and horsepower being reduced... I never thought for one second that we would ever have production cars faster than 64 GTOs, Yenko Camaros, LS6 454s, Hemi cudas and road runners.
I would have bet any amount of money on it. And I would have been wrong!
I am so glad it happened though.
Now we have cars that are far more convenient to jump in and drive that are faster, easier to electronically tune to get a good deal of horsepower out of, and we have them building supercars like the Dodge Viper, C6 and above Corvette, Hellcat and Demon to name a few.
I have certainly said many times though for every one person that goes out and buys a Demon or Hellcat, there are 3 to 10 old Mopars out there that can pull the front wheels off the ground or do a complete wheel stand or that runs in the nines or faster.
Performance cars are awesome! I don't get very motivated over giant SUVs that are fast or even crazy ********* smoke bellowing diesels that run 10 second quarter miles or faster. Plenty of people do. Those diesel truck guys are into their Hobby.
I've seen Volkswagen Beetles doing straight-up wheelies and running 8 to 9.
Does that make a Volkswagen Beetle performance car when it runs Under 12 second quarter mile?? I guess it would but not to everyone.
To each their own, right?
Now stop being rude about the seat!
I don't need to have a massaging seat in my car to know if I would want one in my car or not. I have sat in a car seat and driven a car and I have sat in a massaging chair and have a massage.
It is very simple to mentally determine from those things.
I am certain that a massage in an auto chair would feel just as nice as a massage in any other chair in any other location I just don't choose to have my massages in a car chair.
To each their own.
OP
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JExpedition07
That One Member
A new drinking game: take one shot for every two swipes down. If a new record has been hit down a double at the end.
