12 to 16 explosive devices in our vehicles?

[Mr Big]

Wow. Please report incident to the NHTSA.

I did the day it happened!

 

[Trainmaster]

This is an interesting thread. I never heard of this happening but obviously it does. I'm a bit smarter from reading this.

 

[JamaicaJoe]

Don't see how I am "missing the point". Anyway, I am not buying a latest generation for my next vehcle. The sweet spots were 1st gen and certain years to 2014. Too much electronics and too much to fail. Good day sir..

 

[rd618]

Incindiary charges powering bags and tensioners have changed several times over the decades. Incindiaries used in modern (20teens+) vehicles are made up of primarily Guanidinium Nitrate, which is basically solid rocket fuel. Many of the combustion gases produced are the same or similar to those produced by modern smokeless gunpowders, so, a closed vehicle that has cycled one or more of its incindiaries will smell similar to burnt gun powder.

Correct, I’m familiar with them, the goal of these propellents is to create nitrogen in fast and high volume, I’m not familiar with it used in any rocket propulsion, but seems possible.
My point is that while these do exist and serve a value, people should not assume they are riding around with live ammunition aimed at them or that it will in any way compromise their fuel tank. That’s not a true picture at all.
As for the smell, yes absolutely could smell similar.

 

[rd618]

There absolutely is a substance similar to gun power in the pretensioner and you can smell it when it goes off. It is a pyrotechnic explosive device,

I am not arguing the smell of the resulting explosion, your comment “12 to 16 on board explosive devices that use gun powder.” is not accurate, they don’t use gunpowder or smokeless powder, they use guanidinium nitrate. While there may be some loose commonalities, they are not the same thing.

The computer used in cars is very similar to any PC, tablet or cellphone, with an operating system, processor and ram, reacting on signals and commands true or false. The short sent a signal to the computer and the computer reacted.

I’m not sure that’s how it works. I’m a bit outside my depth but the computer needs a reading not just a “short” to tell it how to react. For example, why did only the seatbelt go off then and not the airbag? If the short sent a “collision” reading wouldn’t both be triggered? If not then I’m assuming the short sent a specific signal that implied it was enough for the seatbelt but only driver side and not enough for the airbag? More likely the short simply triggered the charge directly to the pretensioner, bypassing the computer all together. But I admit I’m not as well versed.

I agree with @ROBERT BONNER comment about being mindful to discharge the capacitors before working around any of those components. Even trim work to run wires, many trim pieces hide airbag components.

 

[Mr Big]

Correct, I’m familiar with them, the goal of these propellents is to create nitrogen in fast and high volume, I’m not familiar with it used in any rocket propulsion, but seems possible.
My point is that while these do exist and serve a value, people should not assume they are riding around with live ammunition aimed at them or that it will in any way compromise their fuel tank. That’s not a true picture at all.
As for the smell, yes absolutely could smell similar.

No one said the ammunition is aimed at them. I'm just pointing out the possibility of one of these going off. The capsule that fired was 3 feet from my ear in an enclosed and relatively soundproof vehicle. Again, imagine going highway speeds and you experience this. A scenario might be that one might lose control of the vehicle. And I'm not assuming the possibility of one going off for no reason as I experienced it first-hand. However, Hyundai is recalling 239,000 cars for exploding seat belt parts is a good example of the possibility of damage or injury. I'm sure over the years they have improved but the possibility is still there.

 

[LazSlate]

Air bags and belt pre-tensioners are passive. They do not receive PCM or data. They are triggered solely by dc current.
Typically in a car a short implies positive + has been shorted to ground since everything is typically grounded all the time and the circuit is controlled by the + current. I am not 100% but I believe air bags and tensioners have both disconnected (+/-) as the computer measures resistance in the circuit to determine if the air bag/tensioner is in spec/working and a connection to ground would interfere with this reading.

For this to go off and short it would mean it got dc ground and then + shorted to another + maybe through worn insulation, etc.
Just seems strange for something to short like that. I would suspect the short occurred in a PCB board or something where the tolerances are much closer.

BTW seat belt tensioners have been around since 1981 and they even pre-date the mass usage of air bags.

 

[Mr Big]

I am not arguing the smell of the resulting explosion, your comment “12 to 16 on board explosive devices that use gun powder.” is not accurate, they don’t use gunpowder or smokeless powder, they use guanidinium nitrate. While there may be some loose commonalities, they are not the same thing.

2 service managers told me that most newer vehicles have 12 to 16 on board explosive devices used to fill airbags, curtains and activate the seatbelt tensioner. So, I researched as well as called Ford Motor Company, who is aware of the incident. They confirmed what was told to me, not to mention the dozens of articles and videos on the subject. Most manufacturers switched to these because of the unreliability of compressors and air tanks, especially when they age.

I’m not sure that’s how it works. I’m a bit outside my depth but the computer needs a reading not just a “short” to tell it how to react. For example, why did only the seatbelt go off then and not the airbag? If the short sent a “collision” reading wouldn’t both be triggered? If not then I’m assuming the short sent a specific signal that implied it was enough for the seatbelt but only driver side and not enough for the airbag? More likely the short simply triggered the charge directly to the pretensioner, bypassing the computer all together. But I admit I’m not as well versed.

How it usually works is a malfunction generates a signal through a module to the processor that determines the malfunction. Usually a light will come on, which did, after the detonation of the charge (Restraint Indicator Warning Light - The restraints control module has detected a fault with the driver seatbelt retractor pretensioner circuit). I asked the service manager the same question "Why didn't an airbag go off as well, if it thought it detected an accident" He explained the reason why only the seatbelt tensioner discharged is because of a short in the wiring going to the tensioner from the airbag module under the center console. I think your last sentence is spot on because there was no warning light until after it happened.

 

[Mr Big]

Air bags and belt pre-tensioners are passive. They do not receive PCM or data. They are triggered solely by dc current.
Typically in a car a short implies positive + has been shorted to ground since everything is typically grounded all the time and the circuit is controlled by the + current. I am not 100% but I believe air bags and tensioners have both disconnected (+/-) as the computer measures resistance in the circuit to determine if the air bag/tensioner is in spec/working and a connection to ground would interfere with this reading.

For this to go off and short it would mean it got dc ground and then + shorted to another + maybe through worn insulation, etc.
Just seems strange for something to short like that. I would suspect the short occurred in a PCB board or something where the tolerances are much closer.

BTW seat belt tensioners have been around since 1981 and they even pre-date the mass usage of air bags.

I'm not sure but after the incident I did get the Restraint Indicator Warning Light and the error message on my phone: "The restraints control module has detected a fault with the driver seatbelt retractor pretensioner circuit". So there is communication going on through the PCM.

I was told by Ford, and it shows on the invoice it was a wire near the airbag control module that was pinched from the factory, that finally wore through and cause a 2.4 or close voltage leak which triggered the seatbelt pretensioner charge.

Yes, they have and have changed their design many times since then. they used to use a spring and lever system with solenoid. But they proved to be too slow. After going through several modifications, they are what they are today and are still being tested and modified.

 

[sjwhiteley]

I can’t imagine this is a common occurrence, though, and don’t think it’s a cause for alarm. Hopefully the incident was fully documented to determine if this is a ‘systemic’ fault, or an unusual situation in assembly. I’m sure the NHTSA take these reports seriously.

European vehicles even have literal explosive bolts at the rear of the hood on a lot of cars! As demand (?) for safety increases, so does the existence of such things. There appears to be a lot of airbags (driver, passenger, a pillar, b pillar, roof crossmembers, and on, and on) in this vehicle as well as the tensioners.

I’m sure this is a very disturbing incident for the OP, and for anyone to experience it.

 

[purevw]

Why? Auto companies spend billions to make cars safer for us and there will always be the occasional fault. We as humans cannot sue every company into extinction. History has shown us that. In the early 1980's Cessna was getting sued left and right for accidents caused by the pilot but blaming the company. The said Fck it and stopped selling GA aircraft for almost 30 years+.

My point is everyone is quick to blame, sue, cry, complain, expect this and that but have ZERO respect for the safety features these auto manufacturers supply us with. I am not saying there are not grounds in certain incidents for lawsuits, but in this case no one was harmed and as long as things are addressed, fixed and corrected to not happen again then we move on.

When a safety feature is incorrectly designed or fails prematurely, it is not a safety feature, but a defect or a safety issue. Typical better mousetrap. When a defect causes damage, the designer and / or manufacturer is, and should be liable. Manufacturers have lawyers on retainer and insurance. A certain amount of legal losses are calculated into their budget. Hard to feel pity when someone loses a life because a manufacturer saved a dollar by cutting corners or lowering standards.

 

[LazSlate]

When a safety feature is incorrectly designed or fails prematurely, it is not a safety feature, but a defect or a safety issue. Typical better mousetrap. When a defect causes damage, the designer and / or manufacturer is, and should be liable. Manufacturers have lawyers on retainer and insurance. A certain amount of legal losses are calculated into their budget. Hard to feel pity when someone loses a life because a manufacturer saved a dollar by cutting corners or lowering standards.

No one is saying anything of the sort. When injury or death then they should be 100% liable. My point is no one was harmed and the dealer fixed it. Should that warrant a stop at your lawyers office?

 

[Mr Big]

For those wondering how the seatbelt pretensioner reacts, here are a few videos, (some good and some stupid), to show what they look like how they activate.
Airbags use the same charges.
Seatbelt pretensioner
Seatbelt Pretensioner in Super Slow Mo
SlowMo Seatbelt Pretensioner Explosion
Seatbelt pre-tensioner detonation
Random Seatbelt Pretensioner

 

[LThalfbaked]

We had a very alarming incident in our 2019 Expedition Platinum.
A couple weeks ago, we were stopped at a traffic light, talking and listening to music, when something exploded inside my vehicle. I thought I was shot, and my wife thought someone hit us. It felt like someone kicked me in the chest very hard. I could not breathe and was panicking. But my wife felt nothing but heard the extremely loud shotgun sound. When the light turned green, I proceeded to pull off the road into a parking lot. You could smell gun powder inside the vehicle and the driver's seat belt was stuck in the retracted position.
I took the vehicle to my local Ford dealership and explained what happened. They told me that the seat belt tensioner mechanism, on the bottom of the driver's seatbelt, activated due to a factory defect shorted wire. It caused the charge to ignite and pulled the seatbelt extremely tight by 4 inches, hence the kicked feeling in the chest. They repaired the issue and performed a full 172-point checkup on the vehicle and gave it a clean bill of health. The tensioner location is about 1 foot from your left seat bottom on the side panel.

I checked for recalls and there are none for 2019 models. However, there is one for 2020 models, pertaining to seatbelt malfunctions.

While I was waiting to pick up the Platinum, I went into the showroom to look at the new models. I was telling the salesman what happened. That's when he told me that pretty much all late model vehicles have at least 12 to 16 of these explosive devices, that can go off at any time. I contacted Ford and they promised me they would look into the matter. You can go on YouTube and see many videos of how powerful the seatbelt tensioner device charge is, among other safety bag tests. The factory argument is the charge will deploy faster than an air tank or other type of mechanism, causing the device to deploy faster to prevent injury.

I hope no one ever experiences this. I'm still nervous, anticipating another explosion every time we go for a ride.

Mine just detonated yesterday while I was about to leave a parking lot. Bang!! Pulled the seatbelt right out of my fingers and left me in a cloud of smoke. Loud charge, only left side of dvr seat went off.

Dealership said it was the 2nd one they ever seen with this vehicle…and both were in the last 5 days involving 2019s. They advised me to contact ford customer service and report it.

 

[LThalfbaked]

Mine just detonated yesterday while I was about to leave a parking lot. Bang!! Pulled the seatbelt right out of my fingers and left me in a cloud of smoke. Loud charge, only left side of dvr seat went off.

Dealership said it was the 2nd one they ever seen with this vehicle…and both were in the last 5 days involving 2019s. They advised me to contact ford customer service and report it.

50k, never in an accident, garaged, and big Ford is paying and I got ZERO pushback from them. Later, someone with big Ford called back and asked a lot of questions about the details leading up to the activation. I offered to permit them to download the computer data (pretty sure they were going to do it anyhow).

If this had gone off at highway speed and startled the driver…it might have turned out badly.

 

[Mr Big]

50k, never in an accident, garaged, and big Ford is paying and I got ZERO pushback from them. Later, someone with big Ford called back and asked a lot of questions about the details leading up to the activation. I offered to permit them to download the computer data (pretty sure they were going to do it anyhow).

If this had gone off at highway speed and startled the driver…it might have turned out badly.

That was my point as well. Mine was fixed by Ford for free, and they replaced the air bag control module, the full air bag and tensioner harnesses, both seatbelts and tensioners and both seat's massage harneses and button assemblies.
We just got back from a trip and I was worried on and off it would happen again. There is a recall but not for 2019 Expeditions. I contacted NTSC and reported the incident but they never responded.

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

Mine just detonated yesterday while I was about to leave a parking lot. Bang!! Pulled the seatbelt right out of my fingers and left me in a cloud of smoke. Loud charge, only left side of dvr seat went off.

Dealership said it was the 2nd one they ever seen with this vehicle…and both were in the last 5 days involving 2019s. They advised me to contact ford customer service and report it.

You would think the Ford dealer would contact the correct department at Ford (on your behalf) to report a potential issue with the seatbelt pre-tensioner firing without an accident?

Many new vehicles have an airbag system warranty that exceeds the 3 or 4 year base warranty.

 

[gtr09]

Wow, I'd be sure to file a complaint at Car Complaints as well. https://www.carcomplaints.com/addreport.shtml Maybe link them to this thread.

 

[dlcorbett]

I'm scared this would happen when My wife is the one to drive the car.

 

[Left Coast Geek]

I crashed a 1989 Volvo 780 Bertone coupe that had airbags and seatbelt tensioners and they probably saved my life.