A Dying Breed

[CyberVinnie]

I’ve come to bid farewell to the Expy forum as I just signed the paperwork to sell mine. I don’t regret the three years of ownership (it swallowed everything I shoved into it) although to say the fuel economy was disappointing would rate in the top 5 understatements in history.

It’s a slightly more sentimental moment once I realized it is almost certainly the last ICE vehicle I will purchase brand new. The only brand new vehicle I’d buy today is an EV (I’m curious what Ford will do with their investment/partnership with Rivian).

In the meantime, I have Weathertech front and middle floor mats, an LED third taillight, and OEM taillights that have been professionally tinted available for sale!

DM me,
Vin

View media item 6591

 

[07navi]

I’ve come to bid farewell to the Expy forum as I just signed the paperwork to sell mine. I don’t regret the three years of ownership (it swallowed everything I shoved into it) although to say the fuel economy was disappointing would rate in the top 5 understatements in history.

It’s a slightly more sentimental moment once I realized it is almost certainly the last ICE vehicle I will purchase brand new. The only brand new vehicle I’d buy today is an EV (I’m curious what Ford will do with their investment/partnership with Rivian).

In the meantime, I have Weathertech front and middle floor mats, an LED third taillight, and OEM taillights that have been professionally tinted available for sale!

DM me,
Vin

View media item 6591

What is ICE and EV ? and isn't there a market section in here somewhere?

 

[Aspen03]

Internal Combustion Engine and Electric Vehicle...

I feel like it's going to be a good long wait for anything like an expedition to be offered at less than low 6 figures to start in EV trim. If it didn't cost nearly as much as the house I'd be down for one but can't have everything.

Not a jab at you OP, just something I see frequently.

I'm always confused when people complain that a 3 ton body on frame vehicle w a large displacement or in this case twin turbo motor gets poor fuel economy. If people would buy what they need rather than what they want this wouldnt happen in most cases but people like to feel safe or like the space or it's great in the winter, etc and a solo driver is frequently found cruising in a baby bus. Plenty of vehicles fill those roles that are far more efficient than anything in this class. I'm guilty of solo driving for work but we have a 6 person family and not having the good fortune of owning a pair of $90k a pop 2020 models we have a pair of older vehicles that either could fill the role of family hauler ahold one go down for maintenance as its not feasible to have a 3rd financially, well not smart anyway. If I wanted to contribute $0 to savings, 401k or kids college I could but that's another argument...

Boils down to they know what they signed up for, ot says right on the sticker the mpg is horrendous. You still bought it.

Our navigator is averaging about 10mpg 100% city w a lot of idling the way things are currently running in the world and lives on premium. I knew this going in and so far I've put one tank of gas in over the course of 5 weeks. No worries.

 

[coupe11]

I wanted the big long Expedition and that's what we bought. Room for us, room for the kids, room for their kids, room for our stuff for the weekend and we'll be comfortable while driving there.

I knew the gas mileage wouldn't be equal to the Outlander or even my Coupe. But it's about the same as my 1/2 ton truck and sometimes 1 mpg better, so how can I complain?

OP, hope you don't get rid of a good vehicle only to find a few months later that you really need that big thing you sold/traded.

Good luck.

 

[Mmart]

Some folks just buy what they want simply because it’s what they want. I’ve never had delusions of efficient gas mileage with my vehicle choices. In the old days (a few months ago) I took public transportation to work, so I don’t really “need” to own a large SUV. The expedition is a highly functional toy that compliments the things I like to do in life. If I commuted 50-60 miles a day I’d probably have something more efficient. EV’s aren’t a practical solution just yet. At least not where I live. No place to charge them, especially when you don’t have a driveway or a garage. So why are you “guilty” of solo driving? Did you not want this vehicle When you got it?

 

[sixstring]

We have an expy el and a tesla. Love them both. The expy is our road trip vehicle since it gets 600 miles on one tank and more comfortable.

 

[Aspen03]

Some folks just buy what they want simply because it’s what they want. I’ve never had delusions of efficient gas mileage with my vehicle choices. In the old days (a few months ago) I took public transportation to work, so I don’t really “need” to own a large SUV. The expedition is a highly functional toy that compliments the things I like to do in life. If I commuted 50-60 miles a day I’d probably have something more efficient. EV’s aren’t a practical solution just yet. At least not where I live. No place to charge them, especially when you don’t have a driveway or a garage. So why are you “guilty” of solo driving? Did you not want this vehicle When you got it?

If we didnt have a large family, I almost certainly wouldn't own an expedition, it would be a tremendous waste of resources both environmentally and economically on my end. I'd much rather rent a shiny new one when the need would arise and have a more enjoyable experience. I've driven something turbo or supercharged most of my life...paid dearly for that when I first started driving in insurance too and miss the fun/handling along w the meets and community that usually goes with. I eyeballed a very nice supercharged gator but at 7k over what one of similar year and condition would net it didn't make sense and would have had to be a full cash purchase as no one on earth would loan on that.

Ability to pick any car I'd probably go for a Model S P100D. They're an absolute blast to drive have more than enough range for 98% of my typical driving habits. When I needed a ton of space or wanted to drive across the country unhindered I'd rent a 2020 navigator L if possible. Life problems solved. Lol.

Everyone likes to knock EV for range/practicality but I know exactly one person out of probably 250 people where a 300mi daily range wouldn't suffice. For most people a simple garage plug in would top off the daily use and almost never need to charge 0-100% unless it was a one off. I drive across the city and my daily commute is only 52mi, I could make an entire week on a charge in most any modern EV. Being in the midwest I dont think I know a single person who doesnt have at least a driveway or garage to park at that doesnt have a source of power. I know that's not realistic everywhere but seems crazy someone would have literally no means of power aside from maybe being in a parking garage in a high rise or something but the few I know like that would never have a massive vehicle anyway. I could only imagine trying to maneuver a 20ft vehicle in/out of one.

 

[CyberVinnie]

Aspen, I’ve never paid more than $51k for a vehicle in my life.

As far as MPG expectations go, yes, I was hoping a smaller displacement engine would out perform “the winner, and STILL King of Fuel-inefficiency” 5.9 L Durango I had back in the dotcom days (yes, I’m that old). The Dodge won it by a .9 mpg margin over the Expy.

None of this is to say I disliked the Expy. Granted, because of the savings I went with a gen 3, which I never really loved, even after seeing the gen 4, which is incrementally better, so I accepted what I was getting into.

The bottom line is a little more than a year of my wife driving a Chevy Bolt has made me a convert to the torque-on-demand wonder of EVs. And don’t get me started on one-petal driving (suffice to say it’s a paradigm shift).

The Expy was my seventh Ford, and I am hopeful that through their partnership with Rivian, it won’t be my last.

Vin

Oh, btw sixstring, if you love the Tesla, I encourage you to the a ride in an I Pace. It may not rival Ludicrous Mode, but there is no comparison when it comes to luxury.

 

[Boostedbus]

I sure hope you are wrong about the dying breed thing (meaning internal combustion engine). I personally think electric vehicles will cause as much environmental damage as gasoline and Diesel engines have over time and maybe even more. I have often wondered what would be going on in this world if we didn’t tap into the oil and use it. It’s hard for me to believe that if we didn’t use or harvest this earths oil (especially the amounts that we use on a daily basis) that we wouldn’t have oil geysers shooting out of the ground contaminating our soil,water, causing fires, etc.....Quite often man has thought he is doing something for the good of mankind and has been totally wrong. Just my thoughts. There rarely is an easy fool proof solution but sometimes if it sounds good and feels good then we buy it hook line and sinker.

 

[07navi]

I sure hope you are wrong about the dying breed thing (meaning internal combustion engine). I personally think electric vehicles will cause as much environmental damage as gasoline and Diesel engines have over time and maybe even more. I have often wondered what would be going on in this world if we didn’t tap into the oil and use it. It’s hard for me to believe that if we didn’t use or harvest this earths oil (especially the amounts that we use on a daily basis) that we wouldn’t have oil geysers shooting out of the ground contaminating our soil,water, causing fires, etc.....Quite often man has thought he is doing something for the good of mankind and has been totally wrong. Just my thoughts. There rarely is an easy fool proof solution but sometimes if it sounds good and feels good then we buy it hook line and sinker.

It's not dying for a long while anyway and that is only if the electric ones take off.

 

[JExpedition07]

I don’t understand why people worry about such small “resources“ being wasted on these trucks. They are commuter vehicles and don’t consume much money. Anyway, make more money, burn more gas is what I say and be happy with what you drive. I’m a single guy in my early twenties and I love my Expedition EL with the 5.4 Triton. It’s fine on gas @15 mpg average. It hauls my boat, takes me camping, fits drywall, 4WD, V8 sound. I’d never own a car with more “efficiency” because they aren’t capable vehicles and they can’t support my lifestyle or work. Nobody will ever make me feel guilty for daily driving a 6,000 pound truck...I can eek 20 MPG out on the highway, that’s impressive with what this truck can do and what I carry inside.

 

[MasterX]

Electric vehicles have their purpose, to be launched into space, just as Elon Musk! Ill take my bolt on horsepower and torque that does not require me to recharge for long periods of time. I drove my GT non-stop to Sacramento from Phoenix, and then back two days later, opened it up pretty good along the way, bumped off 155+ when smokey came calling before blacking out the lights and dipping off into the darkness via the E-Brake and watching him fly past obliviously and go off to get lost looking for me. My longest stop was when i had to drop a log, I ate and drank in the car while cruising, and made the trip in just about 9 hours. Thats 755 miles according to google, you do the math, and show me a EV that can do the same!

@JExpedition07 I guess we crossed streams, your post appeared when i posted mine, I fully agree with the complete difference in capabilities, The Expedition properly equipped is a rough and tumble machine that when properly maintained will not strand you, will plow over obstacles in your path, and take a substantial amount of abuse, and keep right on trucking as long as you keep its thirst quenched.

And even when not properly maintained, It still does a hell of a job, and is highly likely to still at least cross the finished line, even if in limp mode, again, as long as you keep its thirst quenched.

Most people do not see all the new electronics that went with the 3V engines, the ability to keep rolling even without coolant, without a working throttle body, with countless other breakdowns, short of an actual hard part mechanical failure, it will still roll forwards in most cases.

 

[JExpedition07]

For what it’s worth smaller displacement doesn’t equate to fuel economy. A big V8 just loafs lazily down the road nice and easy at low revs and doesn’t chew much gas. That’s why those old crown Vic V8s were good on gas. They strolled along at 1,000 rpm. The new V6 vans and Taurus vehicles with the V6 Duratec run a lot more RPM.

 

[MasterX]

(Fast | Reliable | Cheap) HINT: You can only have 2 of these options, never all 3.

(Small Displacement | Big Power | High Reliability) HINT: The same rule above applies here too!

Funny story, a co-worker had and recently sold a 2015 Mustang Ecoboost. He claimed he sold it because he needed something with a bigger back seat, but he is full of it, he sold it due to the following realization finally sinking in after almost a year of learning it over and over.

He constantly bragged how his Ecostang had more torque than mine(he looked it up online), and how he would smoke me, we raced, he lost, over and over, even went so far as to get a tuner and tunes to add what they claimed was 50-70 ft-lbs, he still lost, and discovered a new problem. While the tune allowed him to get closer to keeping up on the first pass, he then ended up loosing timing and even getting minor detonation which auto-retarded his timing into the toilet on the second pass due to so much heat saturation due to the turbo/intercooler etc, and the tune being too hot for the cars design specs.

He fussed with tune changes for months, insisted it was fixed and then lost some more, in the end he sold the car in frustration.

He never understood that just because he makes more power than i did on paper in theory, A, theory and reality and usually not identical, and B, he makes that power at full boost/full spool at high/peak RPM, i make it a WHOLE LOT sooner, at much lower RPMs, and especially on the 4.6L 3V V8s, the HP curve never drops off on the Dyno sheet, it is still climbing almost like a straight upward line, all the way to redline thanks to the high flowing heads, Torque peaks out, but HP never does. I run out of RPM before I run out of power.

There is no replacement for displacement. There is such a thing as too small, with too much reliance on turbos making it stronger.

Ill drive an Ecoboost, Sure, Just as soon as its a 4.6/5.0L ecoboost, lol.

 

[07navi]

Smaller displacement does equate to better MPGs to a point of diminishing returns. The small cube ecoboosts seem to be holding up even with the turbos straining it. It does get better MPG's than the 5.4's but that's partly due to the direct injection, and look at the extra HP it puts out. My Etec direct injection snowmobile sips the gas and it has tons of power. Also who cares how many cubes it has as long as it puts out the power and still holds up. That direct injection and turbo is a winning combo. Much has been copied from racing engines of yesteryear like roller cams, turbos, fuel injection, ram injection intakes, long curved exhaust manifolds, electric fans, electric fuel pumps, cold air induction, etc but who cares as long as they took advantage of it.

 

[MasterX]

my point was, those high power numbers are so high in the RPM band, you very rarely use them, and when you do, you are revving the piss out of the engine to get it. Also lets not detract from the other reason for that fuel economy that had ZERO to do with the displacement and turbos, and more to do with much better geared transmissions. My 09 Expedition gets a lot better mileage and it has the same engine as my 2005, but with a 6 speed instead of a 4 speed, exact same rear end gears, and the 2009 also pulls harder at high speed, all thanks to a much better transmission with more gearing.

Those Ecoboosts would in most cases be absolute turds in the high speed or low speeds depending on gearing, without those newer transmissions with a lot more and better gearing. Its enough difference i have considered if i ever do an engine build on my 2005, i would also probably get the kit to put a 6 speed trans from a 07+ in it as well, and yes, the kit does exist, i have it saved somewhere, its a addon trans computer designed for this purpose.

 

[Boostedbus]

For what it’s worth smaller displacement doesn’t equate to fuel economy. A big V8 just loafs lazily down the road nice and easy at low revs and doesn’t chew much gas. That’s why those old crown Vic V8s were good on gas. They strolled along at 1,000 rpm. The new V6 vans and Taurus vehicles with the V6 Duratec run a lot more RPM.

I’ve heard that’s one of the reasons Ford roller cammed those old 302 Windsor Vic and Mustang engine’s. It was because too much idling in Police cruisers and barely above idle while cruising causing wiped cams from lack of sufficient oil pressure. Chevrolet small blocks without roller tappets of that era were known for wiping cams. Ford really stretched the life of those pushrod engines by doing this. You combine with way less rpms with overdrive transmissions and it equals a long reliable life. I actually owned a 93 4.6 Crown Vic way back and still say they were probably the best and most reliable vehicles ever made. They were fairly cheap to buy used and had lots of room, comfort, power, decent economy, safety, and reliability.....Best car on the road for the $$$ in my opinion. Oh and if you’ve ever watched “Alaskan State Troopers” you would know you don’t need front wheel drive to go through snow like a champ.

 

[07navi]

my point was, those high power numbers are so high in the RPM band, you very rarely use them, and when you do, you are revving the piss out of the engine to get it. Also lets not detract from the other reason for that fuel economy that had ZERO to do with the displacement and turbos, and more to do with much better geared transmissions. My 09 Expedition gets a lot better mileage and it has the same engine as my 2005, but with a 6 speed instead of a 4 speed, exact same rear end gears, and the 2009 also pulls harder at high speed, all thanks to a much better transmission with more gearing.

Those Ecoboosts would in most cases be absolute turds in the high speed or low speeds depending on gearing, without those newer transmissions with a lot more and better gearing. Its enough difference i have considered if i ever do an engine build on my 2005, i would also probably get the kit to put a 6 speed trans from a 07+ in it as well, and yes, the kit does exist, i have it saved somewhere, its a addon trans computer designed for this purpose.

I doubt if you can you can give the trans all the credit, there is a lot more that can cause the MPG diff between your 2 trucks, also all the sellers of the ecoboost say the power is at low rpms mainly. I am aware of hype but I don't get it.

 

[07navi]

I’ve heard that’s one of the reasons Ford roller cammed those old 302 Windsor Vic and Mustang engine’s. It was because too much idling in Police cruisers and barely above idle while cruising causing wiped cams from lack of sufficient oil pressure. Chevrolet small blocks without roller tappets of that era were known for wiping cams. Ford really stretched the life of those pushrod engines by doing this. You combine with way less rpms with overdrive transmissions and it equals a long reliable life. I actually owned a 93 4.6 Crown Vic way back and still say they were probably the best and most reliable vehicles ever made. They were fairly cheap to buy used and had lots of room, comfort, power, decent economy, safety, and reliability.....Best car on the road for the $$$ in my opinion. Oh and if you’ve ever watched “Alaskan State Troopers” you would know you don’t need front wheel drive to go through snow like a champ.

I always liked those Crown Vics and I'm glad they opted for it to get the job done and save tax payers gas money, I hated to see them go (and no I was never in one...…..lol). I do agree with everything you say above.

 

[joethefordguy]

I didn't buy my Expy for daily driving, though that is what I use it for. If that was my goal, I would have a bought a toy tacoma, or some such.
I bought a used former fire truck (police package) 4x4 SUV because I want to be prepared. Being prepared comes at a price.