Consumer reports Expedition is trash?

[5280tunage]

Yup! Just in time manufacturing at its best. Also means any repairs many of us need may be impacted if they don't have parts in stock. I.e. any module that needs to be replaced. I'm real curious what the downstream impact will be. Imagine, your BCM goes bad, Airbag control modules, etc. Situations where we can't drive our vehicles may be coming. To make things even worse, China is out buying up semiconductor companies all over Asia, and they've literally said they are doing it to control exports to the US.

I also like how capital hill is saying it's time to bring this manufacturing back onshore... So many things I'd like to say.

 

[carymccarr]

Yup! Just in time manufacturing at its best. Also means any repairs many of us need may be impacted if they don't have parts in stock. I.e. any module that needs to be replaced. I'm real curious what the downstream impact will be. Imagine, your BCM goes bad, Airbag control modules, etc. Situations where we can't drive our vehicles may be coming. To make things even worse, China is out buying up semiconductor companies all over Asia, and they've literally said they are doing it to control exports to the US.

I also like how capital hill is saying it's time to bring this manufacturing back onshore... So many things I'd like to say.

Yeah it’s nuts. US manufacturing hit an all time low at the end of 2019. With the virus I doubt it’s going to come back any time soon though the virus also highlighted issues in the distribution chain that may help push some manufacturing back here even if costs are higher.

 

[5280tunage]

I could spend days on this, but I'm not sure I have confidence in that outcome. Balancing US consumers desire to have the shiniest new object at the lowest possible price every year, and the high price of manufacturing in the US due to unions, regulation, etc., we'll never be price competitive. Just even China being considered a "developing nation" and not having to abide by international pollution standards, means they have a leg up on price instantly. One would think the cost of shipping billions of tons of stuff across the oceans would negate the price differentials but it barely scratches the surface.

I recently looked into a particular brand of residential solar, and you actually have a choice of where your panel is made. Identical specs (and to be fair, the raw materials still come from China and South Korea regardless) between the panels, same warranty, etc. The US/Canada made panels were 30% higher cost. when you're talking $30K+ for a system, 30% increase is a no go.

 

[JamaicaJoe]

Think about how 7 years from now that shiny new Expedition will have a bunch of broken "features" and you won't be able to find replacement modules. There is little standardization so the aftermarket won't be a help.

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[carymccarr]

I could spend days on this, but I'm not sure I have confidence in that outcome. Balancing US consumers desire to have the shiniest new object at the lowest possible price every year, and the high price of manufacturing in the US due to unions, regulation, etc., we'll never be price competitive. Just even China being considered a "developing nation" and not having to abide by international pollution standards, means they have a leg up on price instantly. One would think the cost of shipping billions of tons of stuff across the oceans would negate the price differentials but it barely scratches the surface.

I recently looked into a particular brand of residential solar, and you actually have a choice of where your panel is made. Identical specs (and to be fair, the raw materials still come from China and South Korea regardless) between the panels, same warranty, etc. The US/Canada made panels were 30% higher cost. when you're talking $30K+ for a system, 30% increase is a no go.

On a per capita basis China emits fewer pollutants than the United States, are likely to hit peak CO2 prior to their goals and they are held to the same standards in agreements like the Paris accord.

But I digress.

It’s labor costs more than anything else. We can’t get anywhere near what China and India pay their workers. Let alone other even lower cost areas like Vietnam and Mexico. Both of those countries pay less than three dollars an hour.


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[5280tunage]

On a per capita basis China emits fewer pollutants than the United States, are likely to hit peak CO2 prior to their goals and they are held to the same standards in agreements like the Paris accord.

But I digress.

It’s labor costs more than anything else. We can’t get anywhere near what China and India pay their workers. Let alone other even lower cost areas like Vietnam and Mexico. Both of those countries pay less than three dollars an hour.


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Not sure I agree with you at all there, may not matter but sort the following chart. China is 2.5x US in total pollution. Of course, not per capita, but that's because a huge chunk of their population doesn't have power, let alone consistent energy. Now of course, as with all numbers it's dependent upon the source of the info. But even then, per capita isn't a good metric, as they have nearly 1.5B people, compared to the US 332M. So comparatively, if we both emit the same CO2, a per capita metric would be heavily diluted. EDGAR - Fossil CO2 emissions of all world countries, 2020 report - European Commission (europa.eu)

Second, China isn't held to the same standards as the rest of the world under the Paris accords. They are listed as a "developing nation" and therefor aren't expected to abide by the same timelines for compliance as countries like the US. The US had committed to 2035 to be neutral, and China recently said as a "developing nation" they won't commit till 2060. So the single largest global contributor will be the last... Sounds successful.

I do however completely agree with you on labor costs. I just read that hourly Ford employees are getting a fairly large bonus, even though Ford is hurting in just about every other way. Wish they could spend that money on shoring up their supply chain a little.

And as such I have completely digressed. Sorry.

 

[carymccarr]

Not sure I agree with you at all there, may not matter but sort the following chart. China is 2.5x US in total pollution. Of course, not per capita, but that's because a huge chunk of their population doesn't have power, let alone consistent energy. Now of course, as with all numbers it's dependent upon the source of the info. But even then, per capita isn't a good metric, as they have nearly 1.5B people, compared to the US 332M. So comparatively, if we both emit the same CO2, a per capita metric would be heavily diluted. EDGAR - Fossil CO2 emissions of all world countries, 2020 report - European Commission (europa.eu)

Second, China isn't held to the same standards as the rest of the world under the Paris accords. They are listed as a "developing nation" and therefor aren't expected to abide by the same timelines for compliance as countries like the US. The US had committed to 2035 to be neutral, and China recently said as a "developing nation" they won't commit till 2060. So the single largest global contributor will be the last... Sounds successful.

I do however completely agree with you on labor costs. I just read that hourly Ford employees are getting a fairly large bonus, even though Ford is hurting in just about every other way. Wish they could spend that money on shoring up their supply chain a little.

And as such I have completely digressed. Sorry.

China has committed to being neutral by 2060 as you said. Where are you seeing that the US is committed to 2035? Either way our road to carbon neutral is exponentially easier since, by comparison, we have virtually no heavy industry.

As you note for a whole bunch of reasons it’s crazy to compare China and US. They are in the middle of their industrial revolution and we are decades beyond our industrial era.


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[5280tunage]

China has committed to being neutral by 2060 as you said. Where are you seeing that the US is committed to 2035? Either way our road to carbon neutral is exponentially easier since, by comparison, we have virtually no heavy industry.

As you note for a whole bunch of reasons it’s crazy to compare China and US. They are in the middle of their industrial revolution and we are decades beyond our industrial era.


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Apologize, the US's original commitment was 2030 but not for neutrality. But committed as our substantial reductions. Pledges And Targets | Climate Action Tracker

Additionally all, I just sat here mulling over this a bunch, and I realize I've highjacked this and other threads with my thoughts. I do apologize and I'll work on not doing that here. I clearly have a lot to say and find it difficult to find a safe environment to say them. This isn't necessarily nor should it be that. I'll try to stick to my vehicle related thoughts moving forward.