Do all aftermarket HU's have a bass input?

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panda24619

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all right. on aftermarket hus theres 2 things you have to hook up. and buy the hu from crutchfield or sonice if your going to install it your self. its cheaper and they give you step by step instructions on how to do it. but there are 2 things to hook up. all HUs have at least 1 rca out put. and that will most likley be a sub out. the one you are looking at, 2 pairs of preamp outputs (2.2V)
For connection to a separate amp (not included). it has 2 output. are you wanting to get a 4 channel amp eventually? then find one with 3 pairs. front rear sub outputs. that way you dont need to any thing else to get the sound right.
 

Thermo

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DR3W, when it comes to what aftermarket HU's have, it can vary so greatly, it is hard to make certain what you may run across. Without doing some very detailed review of the radio in question, odds are, the pre-outs that this radio has (2 sets) are full range pre-outs. What that means to you is they cover the whole frequency spectrum. With this being said, you can always limit the frequencies at the amp, but you can never get more. So, depending on what you are looking to do with the radio and what choices you make with your amps, this radio can do what you want or leave you short.

Now, for your options. You can split the rear set of RCA's if you are looking to power all of your speakers with external amps. This is normally done using 2 amps (a 4 channel amp for your mids and tweets along with a single or dual channel amp for the subs). The problem that you can run into is if you simply Y out the rear channel, you can run into a noise issue, leading to a lot of alternator noise in your system (the RCA's have a minimum input resistance that they need to see, get too little resistance, they start creating havoc). Your other option is to get a 5 channel amp. While harder to come by, they can also make the installation a lot easier as now you are only needing to plug in your 4 RCA plugs and the amp will split things out from there (may need to flip a switch or two on the amp). This will also alleviate the possibility of noise from the RCAs.

If you are only wanting to add subs, then a single set of RCAs is all you need.

Now, back to what I was getting to with the RCAs and whether they are full range or not. Some radios (normally those with 3 sets of RCA outputs) have controls that allow you to adjust bass volume and the cross-over points from the radio. This is all fine and dandy, but I also see this as admitting that you didn't build your system right. You start messing with the crossover point of your sub and now you are looking at getting multiple speakers playing the same notes and it can lead to bad sound. You build the system correctly, you should never need to adjust the controls for the subs except to maybe boost the bass here and there on certain songs during low volume.

I just hate to see you drop some money on stereo components just to get crappy sound. But then, the quality of the sound is in the ear of the beholder. So, take my input as appropriate. I tend to over design systems, but I am also someone that is after clarity and balanced sound. I don't have to adjust my vehicles when I ping pong between Eminem, Trace Adkins, Pink Floyd, and Ace Of Base (yes, I listen to all those styles of music and much, much more).
 

Thermo

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Oh yeah, I got off topic with the limiting of the frequencies for your subs. You can limit the frequencies for the subs via a few different methods. Sure there are the controls on the head unit. But, finding radios with adequate controls will be hit and miss. So, this leaves you with going with something either built into the amps (I personally recommend this as it makes the system easier to install and tends to lead to fewer problems for the average Joe installing stuff), but the downside to this is you are normally very limited as to what frequencies you can run (very dependent upon the amp manufacturer, so, careful looking is needed). The other option is to go with an active or passive crossover. These tend to give you a lot more control, but also can make building the system more complicated. When I say a passive crossover, think of it as something that the input signal will always be a higher voltage than the output signal. Normally something like this is nothing more than a capacitor or inductor placed in line with the speaker/amp input. Now, you can't simply just toss any capacitor or inductor in there as the ratings of these pieces affect what frequency they will cross over at and if the component will even handle the signal you are feeding it. In a lot of cases, the passive crossovers are placed between the amp and the speaker (making the power ratings of the component very critical). With passive crossovers, once you make a decision, you are stuck with that until you replace the crossover (can get expensive if you don't like the sound or don't know what you are doing).

You also have active crossovers. These offer a lot of flexibility without having to buy new components, but you also normally end up spending more money initially. A lot of amps these days have active crossovers built into them, but these are normally very limiting. External crossovers offer a lot more control and normally will allow you to take even a single set of RCAs and split them out to 3 (or more) sets (dependent on the crossover you get). The problem with active crossovers is you have lots of knobs to play with and it can be intimidating to get these set up and downright confusing if you just go in willy nilly turning things (not to mention, this method also normally ends up damaging something too). You want to go this method, let me know as setting it up is fairly straight forward and I can help you do this (same for those built into the amps).

One other thing to keep in mind is that your pre-out levels can affect how much alternator noise you end up with. What do I mean by this? It is simple. Alternator noise is simply the high frequencies that make it through the radio to your speakers. It is a fixed amount (for sake of argument, lets say it is 0.2 volts, stick with me here). The amp takes whatever signal it gets and multiplies it by a given amount (this is variable based on the input signal). When you adjust the volume, you are not adjusting the number of times that you are multiplying the signal on the external amps, you are simply adjusting the size of the signal being sent to the amps (but the alternator noise is a fixed size). So, for sake of argument, your amp multiplies the signal by 10 times (based on a 2V input limit). This means your amp input is getting a 0.2 volt input and is outputting a 2 volt noise signal (this is signficant). Now, if you get a radio that outputs say a 5V signal, the alternator noise will still be 0.2 volts, but now the amp only needs to multiply the signal by 4 to get your 20V output (2V input with a multiplication of 10). So, your alternator noise will only be 0.8V, which is much less. The problem with getting a higher radio output level is that not all amps can handle this. So, again, this is a balancing act. What are the capabilities of your radio and what are they for your amp. As long as the amp can handle what the radio outputs (ie, the ratings of the amp input are more than the RCA outputs), you are good. The other way, you can get a lot of distortion only if you are lucky, but more than likely if you like your music loud, you are going to damage something (speakers normally, but sometimes amps).

There is no single setup that is golden for everyone. There's normally a lot of give and take and finding components that work together. If you need more help with getting a system setup, let me know. With a few questions, I can get you going on the right track.
 

GAINMOB

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i have to say...you always give a lot of information to ponder...thx for your detailed posts that covers the good/bad/ugly...
 
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DR3W

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WOW!!! Lol

Honostly, all i want is a nice touchscressn HU. Nothing to do everything but wipe my ass! haha JUst play my music, and under $400...ish. And one that fursure fits!

And something to power my 2 12' subs.

SO do i need a 5 channel, just a mono block/2 channel. or a mono block AND a 4 channel. (dont wana spend over $200 on an amp)

I just want a simple system, nice sound, for a good price. NOthing to blow up the neghiborhood! Lol Just a nice sound :) I just dont know what products to buy...

And thanks alot guys, all the help is greatly appreciated!!!



:shrug:
 

Thermo

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DR3W, this is the thought process I put into a lot of things I do for the Expy. But, this is what has also allowed me to get my Expy to where it is.

With that being said, I recommend the following sequence of questions/answers as this will give you a logical flow of questions and answers without having to go back and relook at things.

-determine how much you are wanting to spend and how much power you are wanting
-get a rough idea of how much power is going to be needed at each speaker. The rule of thumb I use is to take your total power, divide it first in half (mids/tweets and subs). Take the sub power and divide it by the number of subs you have. Take the mid/tweet power and divide that by 4 (for each corner of the truck). Now you have your power requirements for what the radio may need to put out, the speakers need to be able to handle, and if you are using external amps, what power those need to make.
-determine the headunit that you want, get down to the model, specs, etc Make sure that if you are using the head unit power, that it is capable of outputting the power you are wanting (power = volume for the most part, more on this later).
-figure out the speakers you want, their specs and ensure that they can handle at least the power you are looking to run (if using the factory speakers, this may dictate some other things, so, keep that in mind, any questions, ask). One number I recommend you write down is the "sensitivity" of each speaker. In short, you want all the speakers to be as close in sensitivity as possible. Odds are they won't be and don't let this limit your selection, but additional changes may be needed to account for this. Normally subs run 2-4 dB/W less in sensitivity than mids/tweets, but don't fret, I will show you how to get around this (its easy). I also tend to recommend getting speakers with slightly higher sensitivity for the front speakers as compared to the rear speakers for the mids/tweets. Why you ask? This helps keep the staging more towards the front of the truck which is the sound style that most people like. If you are wanting a center stage feel (ie, like you are sitting in the middle of the band), then getting speakers with the exact same sensitivity is more important.
-Now that you have your speakers, find amps that meet your power needs and also run the frequency spectrum that you needing. If putting in an amp for the mids/tweets, you want an amp that goes from at least 20-20K Hz. For the sub amp, you really only need an amp that will output from 15-200 Hz. But, you will find that most of them will do 20-20K Hz. I would also recommend getting amp(s) with built in cross-overs. This will make the system easier to install. Keep in mind, you will need to limit the maximum frequency of the sub to some level and need the mids/tweets to take over at that same level. So, the crossovers need to be able to meet somewhere. I personally like to run my subs up to a higher frequency that most (in your case, I say 180-200 HZ), but you will find others that will recommend crossing over at around 100 Hz. The higher frequencies tend to work better for country and rock, but lower for Rap and ultrabass stuff. There is no single "correct answer". Like I mentioned earlier, you may need to adjust the power going to any speaker, find the speaker with the highest sensitivity and then find the difference in the sensitivity (front speakers are 89 dB, subs are 86 dB for example, for a difference of 3dB). The rule of thumb is for every 3 dB, you need to double the power. So, in the case of subs, if you determined that you needed 100 W for each sub, but they are 3dB less sensitive, then you need to run 200W to the subs (just make sure that this new power matches what the subs are capable of handling). Worst case, get an amp that is slightly over what you are needing as you can always turn it down with no problems, but you can't turn it up.
-finally, now that you have all your components, you need to pick the wiring to make this all work. If you need to skimp somewhere, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE!!!!!!!!! I can make a smaller amp sound much bigger than it is by using the proper wiring and vice versa, using the wrong wiring, a large amp can sound very small. With this being said, you don't have to blow big money for high end cable. From the speakers back to what is powering them, stick with some 14 gauge speaker wire. For the wires running to the amp(s), 6 gauge at a minimum (for up to 500 W RMS), 4 gauge (possibly bigger) for larger systems. You can find kits that sell for $30 that will have a lot of what you are after. You buy the wire by the foot and it will easily exceed that based on the prices that they normally ask. So, do some looking around and look on E-bay as they have the kits for dirty cheap there. I also recommend soldering the wires to the speakers to ensure the best connection possible (no sense in letting the sound power go up in heat due to high resistance connections). Plan on spending about $100 on wiring, connectors, fuses, etc.

That should get you going on selecting components and what not. If you are going to buy new mid/tweets, I have a thought process for that too and if you want to hear it, I will pass it on.

I know this seems like information overload, but, once you get into it, you will see how the options will be limited for you based on what you have selected. You may also want to take a step or two back and make a change to give you what you are after. Having a piece of paper and writing things down is also very helpful. I normally draw a large rectangle, label the top "front bumper", the bottom rear bumper, and then I start drawing in boxes (for radio, amps, etc) and circles (speakers) so I can get an idea of where the components are going, what models I am looking at, and some key information about the components. That way, all your information is in one spot.

As for picking components, it is like a fart, everyone has them, but they all tend to stink. But, in short, you will get what you pay for. So, do a lot of looking and figure out what you are willing to spend. That may also dictate what you do and do not get. Sticking with brand names normally is a good place to start, but some of the no name stuff can be good too.

One final thing, when looking at specs, make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. This is especially true with amp power. Compare W RMS to W RMS. If they only say the amp/radio outputs XX watts, they are talking peak watts. To be able to convert that over to say RMS watts (W RMS), divide the peak power by two. This will help keep things on a level playing field. Peak power don't mean squat, try to keep everything on the W RMS scale.
 

GAINMOB

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is there anything else anyone can add following THERMO...i like how you cover A-Z and 1-100...

if anyone still has questions...i dont know what to tell ya...well i have one thing....just go to a shop and say i want ### rms and let them sell you whatever they want to sell you....
 

Thermo

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Ross, oh, I can toss in a lot more. Trust me. But then, I also know the construction of the amps and how they work on the inside. So, that gives me a little advantage over even most of the techs doing the installs. I can go into a lot of detail about how the new Class D amps work and how they are better, but also worse than your older amps (normally Class AB). Like I said, I do a lot of research and try to keep up with the technology of the day.

Like when picking speakers, I do things a little differently than most. In short, what I tell people to do is to go to a few different stereo shops and find as many different brands of speakers as possible and pick a middle of the road speaker from each company (try to use price at the store as your "reference"). Now, listen to each on using the same music (bring your own CD and have the guy play that CD), only playing the one set of speakers. You should notice that when switching between speakers, some will sound more bassy than others, some will make better highs, etc. Make note of which brand sounds the best to you, second best, third best, etc. Now, when picking the front speakers, pick the brand that you liked the best. The rear speakers the brand you liked second best.

I know what you are thinking, "shouldn't I get the same brand of speaker all throughout my truck?" Some argue yes, I say no. This is why. Like you just heard (if you follow this process) is that not every speaker reproduces the sound equally. So, regardless of the manufacturer, their speaker is not going to reproduce the sound 100%. By going with different manufacturers, both manufacturers are not going to have weaknesses in the same spots. What does this mean to you? Simply, you will have less gaps, therefore better overall sound.

The other thing that I stumbled upon is by picking the correct brands of speakers, you can create a surround/quadraphonic type of sound in the truck. What I mean by this is if you balance the power correctly and have speakers that fill the holes of the other speakers, the sound will "swirl" around you. So, what you end up with is sitting in your truck with the drummer in front of you, a guitarist off to either side of you, and the lead singer behind you (for example). It really changes how you listen to the music and gives you the ability to really get deep into the music. But, this is where a carefully tuned ear and pick up the weaknesses and strengths of speakers and then be able to match certain speakers together to make this effect.

When I had my 86 T-bird, I did this sort of setup and it was cool to listen to a song like "Welcome to the Machine" by Pink Floyd. If you listen to the song, there is a sound effect in there that bounces left to right. In my T-bird, that sound effect started at about the rear bumper, bounced left to right, but also would bounce forward till it was between the driver and passenger and then bounce its way back to the rear bumper. It was quite the sight to see the passenger look at me and ask me how I did that. I simply answered it was all in the setup.
 

panda24619

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all right thermo. haha next time i wanna redo my whole system ill tell you how much i have to spend. how much sound i want. and let you just go on a shopping spree for me. haha
 

Thermo

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Panda, I do this a lot. Should have seen me back in the day when I was doing a few systems a year and I had karaoke in my vehicle. Those were the days. Now I am taking a step back and keeping things a little more mild. Next project is installing a system into my jag running separates in all 4 corners and dual 12's off of a Kicker 700.5 amps. That will put me in the 650 W RMS range and should make for more than enough sound.
 
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DR3W

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Okay cool, thanks alot thermo. Really helped ALOT!!!! Lol :happy107:

But what are your thoughts on 5 channel amps?

Or just a mono block for the subs and the HU to power the 4 door speakers?
 

panda24619

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5 channels are good if you want some music to get by. nothing to impress the neighbors with.
 
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DR3W

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So should i just get a mono block/2 channel for my subs. And if i need it, install a 4 channel for the door speakers? :)
 

GAINMOB

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how do you want your music to sound? thats what you need to answer...if you want clear crisp sound from you door speakers to where the words, mids, highs (if you getting them out) are able to be heard then it's my guess to have a seperate amp for the doors and a mono channel for the subs...you may be able to find a 5-channel amp thats able to push decent wattage to the doors but not a lot to the subs if you want your subs to bang...you should be able to set the EQ or listening sound on your HU to bring the mids/highs out more...

my subs bang with the mono amp...but thats what i want them to do...BANG!!! i also have my EQ on vocals to reduce the bass some and bring more to the mids/highs...so its ok...i can hear the words on most songs and the bass isnt drowning it out...but on the right song...forget about it...its nothing less than bass...

this is why i will redo my system with adding a set of speakers in the rear for more mid/high sound...so components in the doors...extra set of tweeters in all doors and either 6x8 or components in the rear for the 3rd row so my 2nd/partially 3rd row arent totally bassed out...i do occassionally have people in the 3rd row (daughter friends/family when everyone wants to pile in my car)...so this is what i'm going after...

so that would be 5-channel for the speakers...and mono for the subs....or 2 and 4 channel for the speakers...mono for the subs....this is guessing but shouldnt be too far from what THERMO says...he may be the one doing it!!! LOL!!!
 

Thermo

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DR3W, when it comes to 5 channel amps, you have to look at the power that they are outputting on each channel. In most cases, what you will find is that you have to run dual 4 ohm subs or one 2 ohm sub to balance things out. But, this is also assuming that you get a fairly efficient sub speaker. OTherwise, you will probably feel like the subs are a little bit on the lacking side. This is where planning, knowing your powers and selecting components will be key. Is the better way to buy separate mid/tweet amps for the door speakers and a dedicated sub amp, of course. But, if money is a concern, you save where you can. You can make a very good sounding system with a 5 channel amp, just have to plan accordingly. If you do go with separate amps, I would tell you to over buy on the sub amp as you will probably find out that you are going to want more volume, which will mean getting an amp for the mids/tweets. Better to buy a slightly too big of sub amp, than to have to buy two of them.
 
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DR3W

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GAINMOB

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if you replaced the HU...i would just do the mono amp unless your bent on having the speakers amp'd...if so...5-ch amp and your good...try to find one that has one of the channels as a sub output though...my thought...THERMO...any input???
 

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