Engine warm up

[Clemson82]

Here's another, road & track saying basically the same thing. This one has an engineer explaining why in detail.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a30249/why-you-shouldnt-warm-up-your-car/

If letting your car idle for 15 minutes was harmful, they wouldn't sell remote start as a feature.

The articles also don't address the items others have mentioned, warming the plastic components in the engine bay, etc. In this day and age, it's difficult to know the agenda behind some of what is published. Is it for the benefit of the consumer, or just for reduced emissions? One source is a government agency that mentions protecting the environment in their mission statement. Both may be important, but that's a whole different discussion.

In the second article "And as Jason explains, idling an engine doesn't really build up much heat at all, compared to driving it.". Maybe Jason drives a hybrid... Let him warm up a V8 for 15 minutes and then stick his hand on the block.

 

[JohnT]

So just that people don't think this is all theoretical. This morning...........




This is what you transmission temp is like after 10 minutes of warmup and 10 more minutes of highway driving



And after 10 minutes of warm-up, 20 minutes of highway and another 10 minutes of city driving

 

[TobyU]

While I agree with you that there is no harm in idling your engine 15 minutes and I will say it's even better for the car, even if it was worse, they would still sell remote starters. They don't care. And neither frankly does the dealer or manufacturer. As long as it wasn't so bad that it blew them up under warranty they will sell you anything they can to make four or five hundred more dollars and to make it more convenient for you.

 

[1955moose]

With twin turbos on these 3.5's as all turbos, they recommend leaving the engine running for at least 3 minutes after running for 20 minutes. I would imagine the same goes for cold start up I've never heard or seen anyone including myself, that had oil burning or smoking, after long cold start running, due to fuel dumping. Fuel is a strong solvent, but it would take a lot to disrupt a seated in set of eight cylinders pistons rings.

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[Plati]

With twin turbos on these 3.5's as all turbos, they recommend leaving the engine running for at least 3 minutes after running for 20 minutes. …….

I know you know a lot, but …. is that really true?
I cant imagine how annoying it would be to sit in a parking lot for 3 minutes, watching the clock and waiting just to shut the engine off. It cant be true! I thought they were water cooled negating that requirement? is that in the Owners Manual? Who would do that?

 

[ExplorerTom]

I know you know a lot, but …. is that really true?

I think it’s more of a general turbo thing. You don’t want to have hot oil sitting in the turbo when you shut down. It’ll cook the oil.

Some turbo cars will install a “turbo timer” which allows the engine to run for awhile after you take out your key, shut and lock the door, and walk away. Of course this was done on cars about 20 years ago- I dont know how/if the new chip technology used in keys changes this.

 

[Plati]

I think it’s more of a general turbo thing. You don’t want to have hot oil sitting in the turbo when you shut down. It’ll cook the oil.

Some turbo cars will install a “turbo timer” which allows the engine to run for awhile after you take out your key, shut and lock the door, and walk away. Of course this was done on cars about 20 years ago- I dont know how/if the new chip technology used in keys changes this.

I read an article a while back about the Ecoboost not requiring that , they designed that problem out "supposedly" by cooling with the cooling system not oil. In the old days turbo's had that issue but my understanding is that Ecoboost does not. I have been wrong before (one in the 70's).

article (I believe everything I read)
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1091

Of course that article may have been written by some arm of the government like the EPA so it might be propaganda and a plot by the government to mislead us?

 

[1955moose]

Sorry, what I read was way off. The cool down procedure for turbos is 30 seconds for shorter trips, 60 seconds if you've been driving it hard, or coming off a longer trip. My apologies to the forum. Don't own a turbo myself, and was going by info I read somewhere.

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[1955moose]

So I've been trying to find some real unbiased info on this cool down procedure. Only thing so far is older Tapatalk guys back 5 years ago. All the ones that seem to know, say due to coolant cooling them down, it's not really necessary like the oil cooled ones of yesterday. But, with reading here about so many early turbo failures, I'm wondering if doing a short cool down would have extended the turbos life. Are their any experts here on the forum, that can provide accurate info as to if the short procedure is an actual test like oil intervals. It would be interesting if 2 vehicles were tested one cooled down, one not, then pulling and inspection of both vehicles turbos, and ancillary parts. Anyone?

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[Julian]

So just that people don't think this is all theoretical. This morning...........

View attachment 28693


This is what you transmission temp is like after 10 minutes of warmup and 10 more minutes of highway driving

View attachment 28694

And after 10 minutes of warm-up, 20 minutes of highway and another 10 minutes of city driving

View attachment 28695

My bet is that those component temps are exactly what they are supposed to be at -40C. Honda, Ford, Chrysler, and others all do/have done extensive cold weather testing in Thompson Manitoba.

 

[1955moose]

You think. No, I'm a skeptical person. I should live in Missouri, not California. You need to show me. I can't tell you how many people swore by an item, just to have it fail, or leak, or just work crappy. Here's a classic example, about 8 years back, I was on my 2nd Lincoln Mark 7. As with our Expeditions the rubber air suspension bags fail from rot at approximately 10-13 years. So I ordered up a set of fronts from an aftermarket company, due to 1/2 the price of Ford. Well, besides the fact the Lincoln now rode like a truck, instead of the wonderful floating ride that the OEM ones provide, the bags completely blew out in just 3 months. Had to convert all 4 corners to that companies coil springs. They were also horrible. So all their so called testing was just garbage. That and the promise of original ride. Same goes for so called testers of new parts for newer vehicles. Do you think the 04-07 Expeditions would have the phaser lack of oil pressure problem, or the stretched timing chains that plague all models. No, if these people did their job, and better still if the Suits above them, let them fix these problems in pre production, none of these failures would happen. The US would blow Japan and Germany right out of the water, just like in 1945. But alas, it will never happen again. Cost, always Trump's anything else. Excuse the pun. It's a shame a company like Ford, has to fix problems one after another with Tsb bulletins, rather than a product out that works perfectly the first year. Maybe 25 years from now, when I'm too old to drive, they'll get it right.

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[TobyU]

They specifically SAY the turbos are "designed" to not need cool down BECAUSE people need to hear that to not be afraid of them as much.
I'm sure they are better in cooling than some of the older bad designs BUT the turbo rule or thumb WILL NEVER CHANGE....You NEVER want to run them hard and them quickly shut off engine. And if it ever dies like when getting on the boost and letting off gas...restart immediately!

Now here's the saving grace kicker.

How could you drive to work or store....get on freeway, cover distance, get off freeway, idle at ramp waiting to turn left or right, go at least a 2-3 blocks to your work or store, turn into lot, follow behind cars in front of you at less than 5 mph until you see your parking area, head there and pull in....then turn off car...HOW could you do that and NOT have let the turbo(s) cooled off??

And most people are getting into boost driving normally anyway.
Some cars use more boost than others and from the specs, I am betting the ecoboost does too.
My son drives an 05 Saab and the turbo gauge moves when I woudn't think it would.

I am used to performance car turbos that you can literally drive and never create boost (into intake) if you drive easy ok maybe baby it. But even when I drive softly in his Saab the gauge shows some movement.

Unless you are doing burnouts or racing in the parking lot.....you will have plenty of idle time on turbos. You don'y have to be in park for the idling cooling down to be taking place. Idling through parking lot with foot just off the brake, which is how I often drive though parking lots with no gas pedal whatsoever, is the exact same thing.

 

[1955moose]

Everybody with means, buys the extra warranty, and thinks if it breaks, who cares. But the poor slob that shouldn't even be buying a new $70k Expedition, and doesn't have the warranty, takes it up the rear, when his turbos take a dirt nap at 100k or less. How hard is it to let your vehicle idle for 1/2 a minute. Every body's in too much a hurry these days.

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[Plati]

I'm a hack barely functional mechanic who doesn't know much. My basic rule of thumb is to follow manufacturer instructions and guidelines. I don't see any Ford guidance on idling to cool down for Turbo's, but then again the manual doesn't say "avoid head on collisions" either. LOL If I ever have an Ecoboost I like the idea of a "cool down lap" vs idling. I suspect that's better than idling, as if I actually know. The final minute or so in the parking lot or neighborhood sounds best to me. I would never have the patience to sit there and idle for any longer than 5 seconds and any engine the requires that has made a major marketing and consumer satisfaction blunder. I even find it difficult to wait for the idle to drop at startup but JE said its important so I tough it out. IMHO

https://www.fordnxt.com/tech-stories/power-adders/turbocharger-damage-common-causes-avoid/

If I lived in the Great White North I'd probably start my Expy in October and run it nonstop until March.

 

[cmiles97]

These motors are in work vans, police cars and in cars with owners who don't know or care how it works. Think a an HVAC mechanic, electrician or delivery guy is warming up or cooling down his work van? HS or college girl their car? Police officer? Is ford seeing a significant amount of failures? Ford designed them with materials, oil and radiator fluid cooling so owners don't have to do special procedures. It's in everything in their line up and has been out since 2010. If they are prone to premature failure you'd think there would have been an uproar by now.

 

[Plati]

These motors are in work vans, police cars and in cars with owners who don't know or care how it works. Think a an HVAC mechanic, electrician or delivery guy is warming up or cooling down his work van? HS or college girl their car? Police officer? Is ford seeing a significant amount of failures? Ford designed them with materials, oil and radiator fluid cooling so owners don't have to do special procedures. It's in everything in their line up and has been out since 2010. If they are prone to premature failure you'd think there would have been an uproar by now.

Pretty much agree BUT lots of people like to get that extra 1% out of their vehicles and do whatever they can if they think they can get that. I think it was MrKushner had a good thread on that a while back. If it makes you happy, do it! Me, I'm happy if I wake up in the morning.

 

[1955moose]

They design these vehicles to be idiot proof, thank God, cause theirs a lot of idiots out there. Here's a good one, make a sensor that kills engine, when low on oil or coolant. All the other garbage, why not make something that really works. The wife couldn't say, honey the check oil lights been on for 3 weeks. No, it won't start back up till you throw back in that quart and a half that's missing in the crankcase!

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[TobyU]

They design these vehicles to be idiot proof, thank God, cause theirs a lot of idiots out there. Here's a good one, make a sensor that kills engine, when low on oil or coolant. All the other garbage, why not make something that really works. The wife couldn't say, honey the check oil lights been on for 3 weeks. No, it won't start back up till you throw back in that quart and a half that's missing in the crankcase!


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That's right. A cheap $300 generator has a low oil shutdown but they can't put one on a $30,000 + vehicle. Because they don't want to because that's considered operator error and they want to keep the money wheel spinning around for everyone involved in the industry.

 

[TobyU]

These motors are in work vans, police cars and in cars with owners who don't know or care how it works. Think a an HVAC mechanic, electrician or delivery guy is warming up or cooling down his work van? HS or college girl their car? Police officer? Is ford seeing a significant amount of failures? Ford designed them with materials, oil and radiator fluid cooling so owners don't have to do special procedures. It's in everything in their line up and has been out since 2010. If they are prone to premature failure you'd think there would have been an uproar by now.

You give the manufacturer's way too much credit. They don't really care about long-term durability. They only care about getting through the warranty and not being too much worse and not too much better than the competitors. I don't want a bad reputation on certain models but they also want to sell new vehicles.
You could go back through the years and list all the flops that have been put on the market and parts on engines that failed what some would call prematurely. I'm not arguing that these turbos are plenty durable for turbos. As you said they've been out for a good number of years now and it's not an epidemic proportion of failures but as I said, for turbos. Turbos are a wear item that should not be expected to last the life of the engine because that is what experience has shown us over the decades. I want nothing to do with a work truck, daily driver, Commuter or any of the other types of things you mentioned having a turbocharged engine that will need a repair eventually. Luckily most turbo failures or just where the turbine bearing prevents it from spinning properly and you just have no turbo boost so you have low power but you can still drive it just fine for all intents and purposes.
Of course if the bearing gets loose there other failure that definitely cause other problems and can cause cause engine damage but over the years I have seen many turbo failures where the turbo simply locked up. I can drive 50 miles that way.

 

[JohnT]

I agree with comments about driving into a supermarket area or even your own suburban area being enough time to cool a turbo down The only time I wait a minute is if really giving it beans before a sudden stop engine off or towing, say I am towing up a moderate incline and want to pull in for fuel or a rest stop? Pull in give the engine a minute to cool off and your done. Rest of the time I never bother, by the time I have cruised into my garage at home, or parked up at work, shopping etc the turbos have not been working hard.

And as an FYI at -40C their is enough engine cooling direct from the block that coasting to a stop light will move the temp needle to 2/3 of normal position. So in that temp I don't think I ever have to worry about premature turbo failure due to cooking the oil in the turbo after shutdown