Idle and brake question.

[Chriscpr84]

Okay so I am a new owner of a 2008 Expo EB edition. We love it so far. Had the normal motor ticking noise and found it was a loose spark plug. So now my question(s). What is the normal idle speed? When I first start up it is around 1,600 and once it is warmed up it stays around 1,300 ish. All my other vehicles normally idle around 740 so I wanted to see if that was normal. Now for my brake issue. They seem a little squeeshy, like I mash it on the interstate and it takes more then half the pedal before it starts actually braking but if I give it a little pump first then it works right fine right afterwards. I'm probably going to be replacing the pads anyways just didn't know if anybody else knew anything about that issue. Thanks everybody in advance.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

My old 05 and 17 both idle at about 600 after the first 10-15 seconds or so. It sounds as if you need to have your brakes bled to get the air out of them. My brakes are very firm on on both the 05 and the new one.

 

[Bedrck47]

Welcome to the Forum

 

[stamp11127]

Welcome to the forum.
The idle is too high. Is the cel on?
What you are describing with the brakes is usually a failing master cylinder.

 

[Chriscpr84]

No check engine light. I am going to make sure there is no air in the brake lines tonight but I hope it's not the master cylinder.

 

[stamp11127]

You may want to check for the procedure bleeding brakes with abs for your model. Some require a power bleeder while others require you to energize the abs motor. Don't follow the correct procedure and you may end up with a soft pedal. Ask me how I know...

 

[Chriscpr84]

Lol well do you happen to know the procedure for a 2008? I can't seem to find it.

 

[stamp11127]

Not at the moment. My DVD drive bit the big one and I can't pull it up. I did find this on the web for up to 2006 that gives you an idea of the procedure.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/900810-abs-brake-bleed-problem.html

Some scan tools may allow you to service abs systems. The old days/ways of bleeding brakes are long gone.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

This is the procedure for the 2007 Expedition. I would think the 2008 would be the same. I could not get the pictures to come out. I will try to save it to a PDF and attach it here.

Brake System Bleeding

Special Tool(s)
Vehicle Communication Module (VCM) and Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) software with appropriate hardware, or equivalent scan tool
Material
Item Specification
High Performance DOT 3 Motor Vehicle Brake Fluid
PM-1-C (US); CPM-1-C (Canada) WSS-M6C62-A
Master Cylinder, In Vehicle

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

1. NOTE: When a new brake master cylinder has been installed or the system has been emptied, or partially emptied, it should be primed to prevent air from getting into the system.
   
   Disconnect the brake master cylinder outlet tubes.

1. Install short brake tubes with ends submerged in the brake master cylinder reservoir and fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Have an assistant pump the brake pedal until clear fluid flows from both brake tubes without air bubbles.

1. Remove the short brake tubes and install the brake outlet tubes.

1. Bleed each brake tube at the brake master cylinder as follows:
   1. Have an assistant pump the brake pedal and then hold firm pressure on the brake pedal.
   1. Loosen the rearmost brake tube fitting until a stream of brake fluid comes out. Have an assistant maintain pressure on the brake pedal while tightening the brake tube fitting.
   1. Repeat this operation until clear, bubble-free fluid comes out.
   1. Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as necessary. Repeat the bleeding operation at the front brake tube.

1. While the assistant maintains pressure on the brake pedal, tighten the brake tube fittings.
   • Tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb-ft).

Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS)

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

NOTE: This procedure must be performed if the anti-lock brake (ABS) hydraulic control unit (HCU) has been installed new.

NOTE: One conventional pressure bleed cycle consists of advancing the brake pedal to its depressed position, opening the disc brake caliper bleeder screw, allowing fluid to be released into the waste container, closing the disc brake caliper bleeder screw and releasing the brake pedal.

NOTE: Performing the diagnostic program routine drives entrapped air from the otherwise inaccessible lower section of the ABS valve into the upper sections (accessible by bleeding the brakes). Subsequent bleeding removes the air from the system.

NOTE: Add clean, specified brake fluid as necessary throughout the procedure.

1. Connect a clear hose to the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw and the other end in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Have an assistant pump the brake pedal and then hold firm pressure on the brake pedal.

1. Loosen the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw until a stream of brake fluid comes out. Have an assistant maintain pressure on the brake pedal while tightening the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Repeat until clear, bubble-free fluid comes out.
   • Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as necessary.

1. Tighten the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. Repeat Steps 1 through 4 for the LH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw, RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw and the LH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. NOTE: Go to the Help menu in the scan tool.
   
   Connect the scan tool to the vehicle data link connector (DLC) under the dash and follow the scan tool instructions.

1. Repeat the conventional bleed procedure as outlined in Steps 1 through 5.

1. If the brake pedal feels spongy, repeat the scan tool service bleed procedure.

Gravity

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

NOTE: When a new brake master cylinder has been installed or the system has been emptied, or partially emptied, it should be primed to prevent air from getting into the system.

1. Fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Bleed the rear disc brake calipers.
   • Place a box-end wrench on the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Attach a rubber drain hose to the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw and submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.
   • Open the bleeder screw and leave open until clear bubble-free brake fluid flows.
     • Repeat for LH rear disc brake caliper.

1. Tighten the rear disc brake caliper bleeder screws.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. Bleed the front disc brake calipers.
   • Place a box-end wrench on the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Attach a rubber drain hose to the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw and submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.
   • Open the bleeder screw and leave open until clear bubble-free brake fluid flows.
     • Repeat for LH front disc brake caliper.

1. Tighten the front disc brake caliper bleeder screws.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

Manual

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with the clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

1. Place a box-end wrench on the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw. Attach a rubber drain hose to the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw and submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Have an assistant pump the brake pedal and then hold firm pressure on the brake pedal.

1. Loosen the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw until a stream of brake fluid comes out. Have an assistant maintain pressure on the brake pedal while tightening the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Repeat until clear, bubble-free fluid comes out.
   • Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as necessary.

1. Tighten the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. Repeat Steps 1 through 4 for the LH rear disc brake caliper.

1. Place a box-end wrench on the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw. Attach a rubber drain hose to the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw and submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Have an assistant pump the brake pedal and then hold firm pressure on the brake pedal.

1. Loosen the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw until a stream of brake fluid comes out. Have an assistant maintain pressure on the brake pedal while tightening the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Repeat until clear, bubble-free fluid comes out.
   • Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as necessary.

1. Tighten the RH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. Repeat Steps 6 through 9 for the LH front disc brake caliper bleeder screw.

1. If necessary, bleed the brake master cylinder. For additional information, refer to Brake System Bleeding in this section.

Pressure

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

NOTE: Bleed the longest line first. Be sure the bleeder tank contains enough clean, specified brake fluid to complete the bleeding operation.

1. Clean all dirt from and remove the brake master cylinder filler cap and fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. NOTE: Master cylinder pressure bleeder adapter tools are available from various manufacturers of pressure bleeding equipment. Follow the instructions of the manufacturer when installing the adapter.
   
   Install the bleeder adapter to the brake master cylinder reservoir and attach the bleeder tank hose to the fitting on the adapter.

1. Place a box-end wrench on the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw. Attach a rubber drain hose to the RH rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw and submerge the free end of the hose in a container partially filled with clean, specified brake fluid.

1. Open the valve on the bleeder tank.

1. Loosen the rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw. Leave open until clear, bubble-free brake fluid flows, then tighten rear disc brake caliper bleeder screw and remove the rubber hose.
   • Tighten to 16 Nm (12 lb-ft).

1. Continue bleeding the rest of the system, going in order from the LH rear disc brake caliper to the RH front disc brake caliper, ending with the LH front disc brake caliper.

1. Close the bleeder tank valve and remove the tank hose from the adapter and remove the adapter.

1. Fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with clean, specified brake fluid and install the brake master cylinder filler cap.

Master Cylinder, Bench

WARNING: Use of any other than approved DOT 3 motor vehicle brake fluid will cause permanent damage to brake components and will render the brakes inoperative. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

WARNING: Carefully read cautionary information on product label. For EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION seek medical advice. In the USA or Canada on Ford/Motorcraft products call: 1-800-959-3673. For additional information, consult the product Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if available. Failure to follow these instructions may result in personal injury.

CAUTION: Do not allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with clean, specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or new installation, air may get into the system and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been correctly connected. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment.

Support the brake master cylinder body in a vise and fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with clean, specified brake fluid.
Install short brake tubes with the ends submerged in the brake master cylinder reservoir.
Slowly depress the primary piston until clear fluid flows from both brake tubes, without air bubbles.
Remove the short brake tubes.

 

[docraymund]

You might have a defective vacuum brake booster that also causes your high idle problem.

 

[docraymund]

Try this:


How a vacuum brake booster works
A vacuum brake booster provides power assist to the brake system. As anyone who has experience a booster failure knows, the booster greatly reduces the effort required to stop the vehicle. Brake booster problems misdiagnosed, often set off a series of expensive events.

Vacuum brake boosters may be mysterious to the average person, but are quite simple in operation. The vacuum operated brake booster works much today as it did sixty-years ago. A combination of atmospheric pressure pushing and vacuum pulling on a diaphragm, multiplies the force a driver applies with the brake pedal.

Most brake boosters, have two or more chambers, divided by flexible diaphragms. The chamber is normally steel and the diaphragm is usually some form of rubber. They attach a metal push rod to the diaphragms and it moves with them. Vacuum, usually supplied by the engine and atmospheric pressure combine to provide the assistance during braking.

The booster at rest

When we are not applying the brakes, a two-way valve allows vacuum application on both sides of the diaphragm. An equal vacuum on both sides, causes a balance, and the diaphragm remains stationery. In this state we say that the booster is at rest. The shell of the booster acts as a reservoir, to store the engine vacuum. A check valve, in the inlet fitting, helps to maintain a vacuum when the engine accelerates.

Applying the brakes

When we press the brake pedal, the two-way valve also moves. This movement closes the passage to the rear of the diaphragm and vacuum applies only to the front. Simultaneously atmospheric pressure flows into the rear. Atmospheric pressure pushes the diaphragm and vacuum pulls it forward. The push rod also moves to apply the brakes, through the master cylinder, attached to the front of the booster.

Releasing the brake pedal allow the internal spring to push the diaphragm and push rod back and operates the two-way valve. This valve blocks atmospheric pressure to the rear chamber. Simultaneously, it opens the chamber to vacuum. This evacuates the rear chamber and assist in returning the booster to a state of rest.

The system is robust and inherently failure resistant. If the valve, diaphragm or vacuum source fail, they have mechanically connected the push rod to the brake pedal and master cylinder. A damaged system reverts to manual brakes, with no power assist.

Types of failures
Most common booster failures are, a lack of assistance, noise or poor pedal return after release. Often a good booster is mis-diagnosed as bad. Needlessly replacing a good booster often occurs.

To function properly, the booster needs a good source of a vacuum. The lack of a vacuum is more common than booster failure. Collapsed and cracked hoses are most common. Other issues include a plugged vacuum port in the intake and a bad check valve in the inlet. Before replacing a booster, we must always test the vacuum source.

Other brake booster failures include broken springs, ruptured diaphragms and leaking valves. A broken spring most often causes the brake pedal to not return fully when released. Brake lights staying on, are one possible symptom, and possibly overheated brakes.


When the diaphragm ruptures, atmospheric pressure will pass through, rather than push it forward. This will result in a lack of power assist on braking. Another symptom is an engine misfire at idle, when we depress the brake pedal. Atmospheric pressure lowers the engine vacuum, by leaking through the diaphragm. This is a vacuum leak and disturbs the fuel/air ratio, causing the misfire. If temporarily unplugging the booster and blocking the hose solves the misfire, it shows a leaking booster.

Internal valve failure may result in a lack of braking assist or brakes that do not release, depending on the failure. We most often replace boosters as an assembly as repair in the field is not practical.

Testing the booster
We use a vacuum gauge to check for an adequate vacuum. The vacuum at the booster should be around 16-20 inches. Insufficient amounts can result from a restricted source and sometimes engine running problems. For instance a plugged catalytic converter can lower engine vacuum and result in poor booster performance. A bad vacuum leak may also cause a lower vacuum.

A leaking booster may also cause an engine to run badly. Leaks in the booster provide a vacuum leak to the engine. One quick test for leakage, is to turn the engine off and press the brake pedal. If the pedal still has one or two assisted applications before getting hard to press, likely no leak exists.

Another simple test is to apply the brake pedal several times without the engine running, to exhaust the vacuum. After the pedal becomes hard to push, hold it down and start the engine. A good booster, with an adequate vacuum will cause the pedal to drop slightly. This is because the booster greatly increases pressure applied by the pedal.

Some reasons a vacuum booster fails

When brake boosters fail the reason is often outside the booster itself. For instance a bad master cylinder leaks fluid into the booster. Brake fluid will cause deterioration of the diaphragm resulting in failure. If misdiagnosed, the failed booster can provide a vacuum to the rear of a replacement master cylinder and quickly ruin it, repeating the cycle.

 

[Chriscpr84]

Okay I did the brake check. Pumped it two times with the vehicle off and it built up pressure and held. Afterwards I started the vehicle with the and the brake pedal sunk in a little bit so all of that is good.

 

[docraymund]

Well you ruled out the brake booster, then it's either the brake master or there's air inside the system. If you always need to top off the fluid, but there aren't any leaks, then it's a master cylinder problem. If you need to bleed the abs, download the Forscan app and buy a bluetooth OBD2 reader. The app can actuate theneeded. The cause of your high idle may be a defective idle air control valve or an idle relearn procedure may be needed

 

[Adieu]

Okay so I am a new owner of a 2008 Expo EB edition. We love it so far. Had the normal motor ticking noise and found it was a loose spark plug. So now my question(s). What is the normal idle speed? When I first start up it is around 1,600 and once it is warmed up it stays around 1,300 ish. All my other vehicles normally idle around 740 so I wanted to see if that was normal. Now for my brake issue. They seem a little squeeshy, like I mash it on the interstate and it takes more then half the pedal before it starts actually braking but if I give it a little pump first then it works right fine right afterwards. I'm probably going to be replacing the pads anyways just didn't know if anybody else knew anything about that issue. Thanks everybody in advance.

Whoa

My idle is like 500 maybe 600 tops. Silent as an EV cant hardly tell its on...have even accidentally reversed downhill with engine off before

'09 162k