Yes! I very lightly lube the rubber insert in the spark plug socket with white lithium spray because it wants to stay on the plug when pulling the extension out!
Misfire count
- Thread starter Bain64
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1955moose
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That's why using the right length locking or one piece socket extension is best bet, but we all have to figure what works best for us. It's a tight mess in there. Personally, I never had any luck with non insulation spark plug sockets. It's no fun to struggle that far just to find out you cracked the porcelain. On a second or 3rd edition model with broken/ stuck plugs to begin with, that would be adding fuel to a potential fire. I like the grease/release idea.
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Yes, you definitely have to figure out what works best for you but spark plugs sockets can be quite a conundrum. Some are very small diameter inside of the metal with a fairly thin and cheap rubber insert so they can even be more dangerous if you do rock them a little bit because the metal puts pressure and cracks the porcelain. The older ones seem to have more of a thicker rubber style bushing inside that was more of a donut so you had more leaning room until you're actually putting metal pressure unfortunately. Sometimes a standard 5/8 socket of a fully open variety can be the safest because it does allow you more room for the socket and extension to lean without putting pressure on the tip of the plug. I have gotten awfully good at not tilting the extension so I don't break plugs and I'm fairly ape ****** so I don't have much of a problem getting them plenty tight enough. All of my life I've had to be careful not to over tighten things.
I broke a plug last week and of all things, on a Chinese built Loncin snowblower engine. it's right there and looking right at you. There's just a slightly weird angle that the overhead valve valve cover pushes on the socket and come to find out my spark plug socket was a little shallow and the tip of the plug was protruding up into the smaller 3/8 Drive well where the extension or ratchet goes in. So the least little bit of tilting put pressure on the plug and snapped it.
I broke a plug last week and of all things, on a Chinese built Loncin snowblower engine. it's right there and looking right at you. There's just a slightly weird angle that the overhead valve valve cover pushes on the socket and come to find out my spark plug socket was a little shallow and the tip of the plug was protruding up into the smaller 3/8 Drive well where the extension or ratchet goes in. So the least little bit of tilting put pressure on the plug and snapped it.
Well the misfires have not gone away, and seem to be spreading. To recap:
I logged some data below over time:
Misfire count = % of last 1000 revolutions
LTFT is around -9% when idle and -7% when accelerating for both banks.
Rear to Front Switch Ratio for o2 sensors on bank 2 is out of bounds high, it should be 0.80 or less but is 0.83. Could the misfires cause this Rear to Front switch ratio to be out of bounds, or vice versa?
What should my next steps be to diagnose?
- Plugs are Motorcraft Sp479, replaced 2,000 miles and 3 months ago.
- Duralast COPs (unknown install date). Replaced cylinder 1 and 8 with new Motorcraft DG508 coils with seemingly no effect.
- P0430 code is back for inefficient bank 2 catalyst, and no wonder with those cylinders misfiring.
- The misfires themselves have not set a misfire code, i only see the misifre counts when looking at Mode $06 data.
I logged some data below over time:
Misfire count = % of last 1000 revolutions
LTFT is around -9% when idle and -7% when accelerating for both banks.
Rear to Front Switch Ratio for o2 sensors on bank 2 is out of bounds high, it should be 0.80 or less but is 0.83. Could the misfires cause this Rear to Front switch ratio to be out of bounds, or vice versa?
What should my next steps be to diagnose?
When I get misfires it's always a plug/coil issue. Are you clearing the codes and then rescanning to get results?
I would pull the ones that are showing repeated misfires and make sure no oil or water on boots and in wells. If not I would get a $30 set of ebay ones and pop them in at least the offending ones are ones that are not newer motorcraft.
See if that clears it up.
I would pull the ones that are showing repeated misfires and make sure no oil or water on boots and in wells. If not I would get a $30 set of ebay ones and pop them in at least the offending ones are ones that are not newer motorcraft.
See if that clears it up.
No i was not clearing the codes between tests, Mode $06 uses live data. Seriously considering all new coils like you mention. I also found that the Duralast (autozone) coils on it now have lifetime warranty, might go talk to Autozone about swapping them out. My aunt bought the Expedition from the dealer in 2004, but who knows which family member or auto-shop would have bought/registered the coils whenever they were replaced last.
Hopefully you can find a phone number that it's in their system under and get the coils replaced. Just tell them it's your aunt's car or whatever and you're not sure what number she put it under.
I always clear the codes for mode 6 information otherwise it racks up a cumulative count 4 a fairly long period of time that it's been counting up the misfires. I'm not certain how long this is for but you can get random counts in there from just starting the car or running over certain road conditions.
Even on a vehicle that does not miss with brand new coils and plugs Etc if you just scan the data and look at the mode 6 you might see a coil or two with some counts. Of course it will be a low number but it seems at least on my scanner the numbers don't go each digit 1 2 3 4 as the counts go. Mine will have zero or have like 54 then if there's more misses it'll have 96 or something. I've never seen a number like 10 or 12. The trigger on mine is greater than 200.
So when I see a cylinder or two with misfire counts, I clear the codes. Then when I scan it again without doing anything. I can even be sitting there with the car running and nothing has changed. They will all shows zero misfires then. Then I go ahead and drive it for a while and scan it again. When I get the same cylinders showing some misfires multiple times, that is when they are suspect.
I always clear the codes for mode 6 information otherwise it racks up a cumulative count 4 a fairly long period of time that it's been counting up the misfires. I'm not certain how long this is for but you can get random counts in there from just starting the car or running over certain road conditions.
Even on a vehicle that does not miss with brand new coils and plugs Etc if you just scan the data and look at the mode 6 you might see a coil or two with some counts. Of course it will be a low number but it seems at least on my scanner the numbers don't go each digit 1 2 3 4 as the counts go. Mine will have zero or have like 54 then if there's more misses it'll have 96 or something. I've never seen a number like 10 or 12. The trigger on mine is greater than 200.
So when I see a cylinder or two with misfire counts, I clear the codes. Then when I scan it again without doing anything. I can even be sitting there with the car running and nothing has changed. They will all shows zero misfires then. Then I go ahead and drive it for a while and scan it again. When I get the same cylinders showing some misfires multiple times, that is when they are suspect.
What option are you using to reset the mode 6 data? I don't see that option in Forscan or InCarDoc, it pulls current data fresh each time instead. Do you mean clearing the DTC's and does that clear the mode 6 data like you're talking about?
1955moose
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I did that with my battery. Told the guy at oreiilys the old owner's name, then he transferred into my name with replacement battery.
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That's cool. They are not supposed to as the warranty only goes to the original owner but when you have a history with them they're usually pretty cool to you.
Yes. On mine which is an older autoxray 5000 but it seems to be similar to most of the scanners that have the instant moderate during and the information passed just listening the individual code. Every time I clear the codes for check engine light it clears out the misfire counts.
I have the $28 chinese brand coil packs on the way as a test, arriving tomorrow.. But digging into the shop manual a bit more, i'm wondering if my high fuel pressure is what's causing these minor misfires...
Shop manual reasons for P0420/P0430
Anyways back to the fuel pressure, a few months ago when I checked I had 88 psi, shop manual says 48-70 is normal. I need to buy my own gauge so I can check again at will, but it did appear at the time that the regulator is failing open, which accounts for the negative long term fuel trims.
Shop manual reasons for P0420/P0430
- Use of leaded fuel
- Damaged HO2S
- Malfunctioning ECT
- High fuel pressure
- Damaged exhaust manifold
- Damaged catalytic converter
- Oil contamination
- Cylinder misfiring
- Downstream HO2S wires improperly connected
- Damaged exhaust system pipe
- Damaged muffler/tailpipe assembly
- Retarded spark timing
- Leaking fuel injector
Anyways back to the fuel pressure, a few months ago when I checked I had 88 psi, shop manual says 48-70 is normal. I need to buy my own gauge so I can check again at will, but it did appear at the time that the regulator is failing open, which accounts for the negative long term fuel trims.
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You have to be careful about looking at lists that can cause problems. They tend to include every possible thing under the sun that could cause the problems because that's what the name of the list is. You're much better off on forms like this or in some F-150 forums or other Ford forms where you might get more information specific to the engine where people's experiences is much more accurate than those lists.
I don't think I've ever seen 80 psi on a Ford. I don't think I've ever seen that high fuel pressure on any car unless you're pinching off the return line to deadhead the pump to see how high the pressure would go.
I don't think it will cause misfires.
I have built up quite an ear/ feel for it as a lot of people have and can definitely tell an ignition misfire over any other type of misfire.
For the money, the coils are a great test and I'm running several of my cars on them right now and I got eight years out of the first set of eBay ones I bought before I had a single one starts randomly misfire.
What about the plugs? How long have they been in there? I would feel more comfortable about a fresh set of plugs whose gaps have been checked and I tried it a good snug . 052 if we're talking about a 2 valve.
In my entire life I never saw a spark plug go bad oh, just get old or dirty or severely rounded off center electrode and Gap wear. Since 2005 I have seen three spark plugs go bad that were perfectly fine and working great for several thousand miles but we're not old and worn out.
They each cause random misfires or a solid miss once they got up to temperature or at least at certain temperatures.
If a not relatively new and you didn't do them or check the gaps yourself I wouldn't trust them. Just go get some standard single Platinum Motor crafts they are only two or three dollars a piece.
Don't worry about anything more expensive or being up sold at the parts store for this is just a test purpose to get the vehicle running perfect for now.
Then you can find out after the fact that those coils and the standard plugs are great for many thousands of miles and years. At least that's the goal and it has been the case for me.
Many people do not check plugs before they install them and they don't gap them with the obsessive compulsive disorder that I do.
Simply dropping a plug even in the Box can cause damage that can show up as a shortened life or misfires later.
Even if you don't do plugs, clear out the codes and with the new coils check your misfire counts. If you do find a cylinder that gives you missed our counts on more than one scan then suspect that plug. Replace it or do the set. It's just easier for me to go ahead and stick plugs in when I have the coils out.
Let us know. Diagnostics are my favorite thing to do two vehicles in person. Not as much fun over the phone or via internet. I don't exactly love to fix the problems I just like to diagnose.
I don't think I've ever seen 80 psi on a Ford. I don't think I've ever seen that high fuel pressure on any car unless you're pinching off the return line to deadhead the pump to see how high the pressure would go.
I don't think it will cause misfires.
I have built up quite an ear/ feel for it as a lot of people have and can definitely tell an ignition misfire over any other type of misfire.
For the money, the coils are a great test and I'm running several of my cars on them right now and I got eight years out of the first set of eBay ones I bought before I had a single one starts randomly misfire.
What about the plugs? How long have they been in there? I would feel more comfortable about a fresh set of plugs whose gaps have been checked and I tried it a good snug . 052 if we're talking about a 2 valve.
In my entire life I never saw a spark plug go bad oh, just get old or dirty or severely rounded off center electrode and Gap wear. Since 2005 I have seen three spark plugs go bad that were perfectly fine and working great for several thousand miles but we're not old and worn out.
They each cause random misfires or a solid miss once they got up to temperature or at least at certain temperatures.
If a not relatively new and you didn't do them or check the gaps yourself I wouldn't trust them. Just go get some standard single Platinum Motor crafts they are only two or three dollars a piece.
Don't worry about anything more expensive or being up sold at the parts store for this is just a test purpose to get the vehicle running perfect for now.
Then you can find out after the fact that those coils and the standard plugs are great for many thousands of miles and years. At least that's the goal and it has been the case for me.
Many people do not check plugs before they install them and they don't gap them with the obsessive compulsive disorder that I do.
Simply dropping a plug even in the Box can cause damage that can show up as a shortened life or misfires later.
Even if you don't do plugs, clear out the codes and with the new coils check your misfire counts. If you do find a cylinder that gives you missed our counts on more than one scan then suspect that plug. Replace it or do the set. It's just easier for me to go ahead and stick plugs in when I have the coils out.
Let us know. Diagnostics are my favorite thing to do two vehicles in person. Not as much fun over the phone or via internet. I don't exactly love to fix the problems I just like to diagnose.
1955moose
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Bain we warned you about that high pressure over 6 months ago. Why do you ignore it? Your going to burst something with that high of pressure. If your blood pressure was that high, you wouldn't be texting us today. Throw a regulator or whatever causing it. Top running pressures are 28-45 for a 2007 Expedition, I can't remember what year yours is, but 50psi should be highest. I think that Ford chart is wrong, either way your way too high. You'd be the equivalent of a human running 190/130 bp.
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Most of the fuel system will handle 100 PSI even more but for how long? I have squeezed off line and seem them hit a 100-110 but I wouldn't want that being on there all the time.
I would assume that the regulator is the first thing to its back but I've never even heard of one of those making pressures this high.
Without looking at it I wouldn't know if this is a type of regulator you can disassemble or not. I have had good luck taking them apart and clean them and putting them back together.
I still don't think that is causing random misfires though. A fuel injector should be perfectly capable of handling 80 PSI and seal off properly between pulses and fire just fine.
I would assume that the regulator is the first thing to its back but I've never even heard of one of those making pressures this high.
Without looking at it I wouldn't know if this is a type of regulator you can disassemble or not. I have had good luck taking them apart and clean them and putting them back together.
I still don't think that is causing random misfires though. A fuel injector should be perfectly capable of handling 80 PSI and seal off properly between pulses and fire just fine.
It's a 2003. You're absolutely right, it was hard for me to justify when there weren't any other symptoms except high fuel pressure. I've only owned it a year and spent more than 50% of the original purchase price in repairs, and was holding off on what I could.. And at this point I'm pretty sure I need a fuel pump, power steering pump and upper control arms.
The upper psi of 70 listed in the factory shop manual seemed high to me, that was the first time I had ever seen that figure listed.
The new coil packs did not help the misfires.. As an aside, the drivers door window regulator broke last night, and now the wife is encouraging me to start shopping for vehicles. I think I'm going to limp this one along until after the family Disney trip and start looking for a 13-14 Expedition or Yukon/Tahoe... Don't hate me if I move to the dark side (GM)!
1955moose
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Yeah, it sounds like it's time to cut your losses and move along. Sometimes we get lucky with used vehicles, sometimes we take it in the rear. This SUV must have lead a tough life. I've always had best luck with low mileage examples. Takes some looking, but I'd rather log on my own miles. Buying used is always a crap shoot no matter how well you check it out ahead of purchase.
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That sucks. But that's why I said it's worth it for the $27 test. I don't recall if you're able to see mode 6 data after a reset to see if it's really a ignition mess or not?
Of course the computer will say any misfire even if it's an injector and still show it as a misfire but on these engines over nine times out of 10 if it's a misfire it's a plug or a coil.
What are your short and long-term fuel trims? If the fuel pressure is that high it should be running extremely rich. Fuel injectors only have a duty cycle from the ECM. When it starts out with all the learned information cleared, it will be trying to spray the adequate amount of fuel which means it's staying open for the appropriate amount of time. If you double the fuel pressure more fuel gets through. Of course since these cars then are computer-controlled, it will sense the richness and it should start subtracting Fuel and your short and long-term fuel trims.
Does the thing have a noticeable miss or shake at idle in drive with your foot on the brake? It's got to be something simple. Even if you are going to sell it you want to make it run right so you can get top dollar out of it.
I don't believe in ever trading in a vehicle. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad! I give you nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing.
Well, to be accurate on a vehicle with a fairly higher-value they do give you something but they are ripping anyone off who trades in a vehicle.
They just don't come down as much on the one you're looking to buy and they lowball you on your trade amount anyways. So when I'm talk about replacing a vehicle or selling one and buying another one then I mean it's time to clean up the car fix any little small problems make everything presentable as possible so it will run nicely on a test drive so I can get top dollar.
You can get a fuel pump for that thing for under $100 even if you have to go to a salvage yard or buy a used one on eBay. Takes less than an hour to install the pump so that would at least fix your high fuel pressure.
Of course the computer will say any misfire even if it's an injector and still show it as a misfire but on these engines over nine times out of 10 if it's a misfire it's a plug or a coil.
What are your short and long-term fuel trims? If the fuel pressure is that high it should be running extremely rich. Fuel injectors only have a duty cycle from the ECM. When it starts out with all the learned information cleared, it will be trying to spray the adequate amount of fuel which means it's staying open for the appropriate amount of time. If you double the fuel pressure more fuel gets through. Of course since these cars then are computer-controlled, it will sense the richness and it should start subtracting Fuel and your short and long-term fuel trims.
Does the thing have a noticeable miss or shake at idle in drive with your foot on the brake? It's got to be something simple. Even if you are going to sell it you want to make it run right so you can get top dollar out of it.
I don't believe in ever trading in a vehicle. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad! I give you nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing.
Well, to be accurate on a vehicle with a fairly higher-value they do give you something but they are ripping anyone off who trades in a vehicle.
They just don't come down as much on the one you're looking to buy and they lowball you on your trade amount anyways. So when I'm talk about replacing a vehicle or selling one and buying another one then I mean it's time to clean up the car fix any little small problems make everything presentable as possible so it will run nicely on a test drive so I can get top dollar.
You can get a fuel pump for that thing for under $100 even if you have to go to a salvage yard or buy a used one on eBay. Takes less than an hour to install the pump so that would at least fix your high fuel pressure.
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