Wrench icon 2007

[stamp11127]

I looked at it also. This is where I used to "live", I just don't have their fancy scan tool that monitors the messages on the bus. This is the same as capturing packets on an ethernet network in the IT world.

But if your a dealer and have their razzle dazzle scan tool, the manual leads you by the hand on finding the problem. Almost to the point where a brain dead idiot can find it.

First thing you always do is check the terminating resistors. If one of those lets go your chasing your azz for hours.

 

[stamp11127]

7FordExpedition ask them when the tech is going to work on it and if you can observe what is happening on the bus as they are monitoring it. Bet you will get the "deer in the headlights stare".
Just for giggles ask them what the CAN HS bus would cost and how much to put in. Don't replace it though - it hasn't proven to be at fault.

Please send me your email address and I'll send you some info on it. That way you'll have some knowledge on the issue should they try to bs you.

Not saying that this is your problem but wiring harnesses are built from stranded wire. Lets say that the wire has 60 strands but 59 are broken somewhere, they are considered "open" and those strands will not conduct electricity until some or all connect back up to the other strands they are part of. But that single unbroken strand will show the wire as being "good" even though it really isn't when it is tested with a meter. When the normal load is put on the wire that single strand isn't capable of transmitting all of the messages. The result is a communication failure.

 

[Bedrck47]

Stamp Would that be a good idea to ask about the cost of the CAN HS bus as it may give the dealer an excuse to say something is wrong with it and then charge to replace it

 

[stamp11127]

I would tell them to prove it first & get the cost of the repair. You should be able to see the lost messages on the test equipment as being dropped or garbled.
If I chose to have them do the job you can bet it would be paid on a credit card so if it wasn't the problem I would refuse to pay. Have been down that road a few times. "Want to take me to court go ahead. All of your failed repairs have been documented."

Update: I've looked at the manual for testing the network. They want their mechanics to use the scan tool to "talk" to each module but resort to voltage and resistance measurements in the physical testing. That means you can test the network yourself as long as you have a good meter.

So 7FordExpedition, how are you with electrical & electronics? Do you have a decent digital multi-meter?

 

[7FordExpedition]

I would tell them to prove it first & get the cost of the repair. You should be able to see the lost messages on the test equipment as being dropped or garbled.
If I chose to have them do the job you can bet it would be paid on a credit card so if it wasn't the problem I would refuse to pay. Have been down that road a few times. "Want to take me to court go ahead. All of your failed repairs have been documented."

Update: I've looked at the manual for testing the network. They want their mechanics to use the scan tool to "talk" to each module but resort to voltage and resistance measurements in the physical testing. That means you can test the network yourself as long as you have a good meter.

So 7FordExpedition, how are you with electrical & electronics? Do you have a decent digital multi-meter?

I have a multi-meter out in the garage somewhere, have no idea if it is a good one or if it even works anymore ... but ... how am I with electronics and electrical? Unfortunately ... I stink at electrical and electronics. I am a user, can sometimes figure simple stuff out but basically my E&E skills do not go beyond gross. Like I can replace a battery, plug and unplug connectors ... that is about it. One of the reasons why I have it in at the stealer I guess.

Oh, I was over on the Ford Truck Enthusiasts site (get a lot of info for my 1964 F100 over there) and there is a guy with almost my same concerns with his 2007 Expedition. Is this kind of thing a routine problem?

 

[7FordExpedition]

Question: ALL dealers do have CAN compliant readers ... right? All the rest of the up to date stuff to work on these things. Right?

I got the car at a smallish dealer in Southern Pines, NC that is owned by a large dealer group called Crossroads. I presumed the tech's (what happened to mechanics?) were experienced and competent. But their lack luster performance has me seriously concerned.

 

[stamp11127]

The more "complicated" things get the easier it is for them to screw up. Don't know if it is a common problem. If it is, there is probably a tsb out on it.

As far as a dealer being up to date, they should be. I don't know what the cost to them is from Ford but I have heard independant shops saying the cost for the scanner can run around $10,000 with yearly updates costing more. And that may not let them have the same access as OEM equipment.

 

[7FordExpedition]

The more "complicated" things get the easier it is for them to screw up. Don't know if it is a common problem. If it is, there is probably a tsb out on it.

As far as a dealer being up to date, they should be. I don't know what the cost to them is from Ford but I have heard independant shops saying the cost for the scanner can run around $10,000 with yearly updates costing more. And that may not let them have the same access as OEM equipment.

Thanks, I do appreciate it. This weekend no work was done at the dealer of course but hope they do something tomorrow (Tuesday). I am also trying to get codes and work done by the Ford dealer in Hondo,Texas where I bought this car. From the day I took it home to now I've been trying to get this problem fixed. Will post up what if anything happens!

 

[7FordExpedition]

Spoke with the service manager at Crossroads Ford this morning. He says since I brought it back it has not displayed the wrench icon again and nothing was stored in the computer since I brought it back. He tells me they are working with Ford to fix this thing.

Now I am really worried.

 

[stamp11127]

Lets see, you take it to them with the wrench turned on and they say there aren't any codes plus they haven't had it come on.

BS

I would politely ask if they can pull the history on the vin number. There may be a history from day one with this, plus if there is then you know what parts have been thrown at it. And you can ask what hasn't been changed?

Once you get it back, if you are able to video the dash while driving it will help "prove" to them your not a whack job. Only idiots are with a true video.

 

[7FordExpedition]

OK, September 9, 2014. I thought I'd throw the year in cause I don't think I am ever gonna get the Expedition back from the dealer or at least not during this year.

They still have no idea what is wrong with it. They are going back and forth with Ford on what to do and I have no idea what they have done but so far it has not worked.

They have let me use a new F150 SuperCrew to drive around until they can fix it and give it back to me. And of course no charge for the loaned truck.

I called on the car yesterday and they jokingly said they still have it and have not sold it. I told them if they have a buyer ... sell it and I was not joking.

So they have had this thing since August 21, 2014. I sorta remember what it looked like. But the memory is fading fast.

 

[stamp11127]

This is the type of problem that I always loved getting - a puzzle.
Next step would be to talk with the mechanic - document was has been done and in the order it was done in.
Basically what have they tried.
Are the faults still present? If not take them for a ride and get it to come back on.

 

[7FordExpedition]

I heard from the dealer just a bit ago. They found a wiring harness that apparently recived damage from being close if not touching a portion of the exhaust system. They have ordered a new one. It should come in tomorrow and they will have it out late Wednesday afternoon or Thursday early.

3 dealers have been working on this on and off since October of 2013. I am praying that this is actually the fix. Course ... this isn't the first time a dealer thought they had it fixed but we shall see.

I will carry the camera to video any happenings. Just in case.

 

[Bedrck47]

Ask them to see the damaged harness.
Also if you can get the harness or pictures of the connectors we may be able to check the wiring diagrams to see what all was connected thru the harness.
Would help to know the number of pins and wire colors but that may be asking too much.

 

[stamp11127]

I would expect it to be part of the HS CAN bus harness.

 

[7FordExpedition]

Picked up the truck today. This is the pic of the wiring harness they replaced. At one time the dealer in Hondo, TX replaced the cam phasers and had to move this harness and did not put it back correctly and it got to close to the exhaust.

Drove home OK, all in all cost me $100 in total. I am going after the dealer in Hondo to see if I can get that $100 back too.

 

[Bedrck47]

That would defiantly cause a problem hope all works out for you

thanks for the update

 

[stamp11127]

Your work order/bill should have the part number of the harness. If so please post the number and I'll see which one it is.

 

[7FordExpedition]

They replaced harness 15525 between trans connector and main harness. Connector C-146. Harness not attached at rear engine bracket. Exhaust manifold causing heat damage to harness which was causing communication failure between TCM and all other CAN modules. R&R RF wheel and wheel well. Install new harness and route to proper location.

 

[stamp11127]

That is part of the HS Can (high speed controller area network).

It still amazes me the amount of so called "mechanics" that don't fully grasp electrical and electronics troubleshooting. Just think of the number of dealers/mechanics that looked at your problem since you bought it.

How long have pcms/ecms be out?????