When to turn rotors or replace?

[hawkman71]

Automatically replace caliper? Both calipers? Is there any chance the problem is just the slider pins not lubricated at last brake job? Thats why I like to do my own brakes, take that apart, inspect rubber boots and whatever, lubricate, file down brake pad's so no binding, etc. I'm not claiming to be a master mechanic.

This also surprised me - two bolts held the caliper in place. No slider pins with Allen key to remove. (like on the rear of this same vehicle). The only moving part was the caliper pistons themselves. The pads slid on those clips. The old ones were dirty and not smooth. I did NOT grease the new ones. I was told the grease collects dust and dirt and hinders more than it helps later on... I'm no mechanic either...

 

[hawkman71]

First photo shows one of the bolts, already partially loosened that held the caliper. (The other bolt at the top already removed. The next photo a closer up version. I had to hold that flattened plastic piece on the other side of the caliper-attachment point to get the bolt to thread out.

 

[1955moose]

The reason I recommend calipers is two fold, 1, parking a vehicle outdoors and just age cause the pistons to stick, and get crud in cylinder bores . And 2, what if he cleans up the slide area of the caliper, and it's still not retracting right? He'll chew up the new rotors and pads. Calipers aren't that expensive, and if he's had more than 3 sets of pads, it's time to either pull apart calipers, clean/replace pistons, new seals, or easiest get a set remanned, and ready to bolt on and bleed. That's what I've done, everyone's SUV is theirs to do what they please. I'm just recommending here.

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[TobyU]

The caliper was definitely sticking if the inside pad is warm or butt you don't necessarily have to replace the calipers. It's not going to be in the same position after you put new pads on as it is now. Some have 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch movement total from a new set of pads to a worn-out set of fast. Clean everything up good and blow off with compressed air and what I like to do is lift the dust boot on the caliper piston or Pistons up with a tiny screwdriver and stick the nozzle my WD-40 or spray some PB Blaster or my favorite is Lucas chain lube all around the Piston before I press it back in. So this means you only want to push the pads together a little bit to take the caliper off. Some people use a large C-clamp or a brake pad compression tool and you can push them way further in this way. Just do it enough to get the caliper off so the Pistons remain out most of the way. Then when that nice lubricating grease and stuff gets in there and then you push the Pistons in with a clamp, it will be more lubricated and plus you're on a different position than it's been for the past couple of years so there is a good chance it won't stick again. It's a little bit of a gamble but I can certainly tell when I twist my C-clamp in to compress the Piston if the Piston is sticking or not. A nice newer or good condition caliber just light finger pressure and it presses right in. On one that's older and stickier it takes a little bit more to turn them but that's still fine. When you have one that's tight and you really have to try to twist to turn it in its going to give you problems. On those, I often Lube them and push them in and then I will have someone push the brake pedal but you have to be very very very careful about this and only push slowly and make sure they stop when you tell them to. You don't want to push the Piston out past its normal movement. Then lube them again and work them back in. Typically after three times back and forth even a sticky caliper gets nice and easy to twist in with the clamp.
There are several of these larger Ford you can still get rebuild kits available in the parts stores. I just rebuilt some on a 99 large Van rear discs that the kits for only $6 a piece. You can rebuild them without even taking the caliper off the car sometimes but I always remove it.

 

[rjdelp7]

Automatically replace caliper? Both calipers? Is there any chance the problem is just the slider pins not lubricated at last brake job? Thats why I like to do my own brakes, take that apart, inspect rubber boots and whatever, lubricate, file down brake pad's so no binding, etc. I'm not claiming to be a master mechanic.

Yes, on the sliders. Some pads fit a little too tight. They should feel loose and free. Mechanics will grind down the end, where it slides. That little bit of slop, will make sure pads won't drag. This is another reason, OEM are usually the best replacements.

 

[Plati]

This also surprised me - two bolts held the caliper in place. No slider pins with Allen key to remove. (like on the rear of this same vehicle). The only moving part was the caliper pistons themselves. The pads slid on those clips. The old ones were dirty and not smooth. I did NOT grease the new ones. I was told the grease collects dust and dirt and hinders more than it helps later on... I'm no mechanic either...

I'm a little confused. I've never done a brake job like that, not to say thats not an acceptable way to do it. Is that a shortcut I never knew about? I always take the entire caliper off (but leave rubber hose attached). Get the pads out then inspect / lube slider pins. Remove I think. Those two "bolts" you removed ARE the slider pins, right? The metal clips are not supposed to be greased, true. Sliders are.

If the only moving part is the caliper piston ... then how would the far side brake pad exert pressure on rotor to stop the vehicle? As the pads wear down sliders come (even more) into play.

On my 2003 Expy, when a brake job is needed I take the calipers off and bang all the rust off. Its pretty crusty. Bang and scrape down get all the crud off the cast iron.

As far as replace both calipers if one is bad. Sure some do that but its a financial decision. Spend more money get a more reliable vehicle, spend less & gamble. Personal preference. I almost always replace pads & rotors at same time ... but if rotors still look good and I want to save a few bucks, just pads (every other). Some people do oil changes at 3K, I know one guy who does it every year or 50 miles. Owners choice.

 

[hawkman71]

I'm a little confused....

I'm saying on the rear, there were two plastic caps to pop off, then a hex was inserted to loosen (what I think you are calling) slider pins - bolts that have a smooth exterior to allow the brakes to move in and out. I loosened those, pulled the pins out far enough, and pulled the caliper off.

On the front, I reached to find those plastic caps and found none. I took a closer look and realized there were none. Only two threaded, normal-looking bolts, that I removed. Once removed, the caliper came off like I'd expect. Hose attached.

That's why I posted the photos. What you see is what I got.

I might go and take a picture of the inside of both the front and rear calipers if I can reach them without removing wheels.

 

[hawkman71]

So, I took a photo of the left-side calipers. Here's what I got. They look quite different from each other.

FRONT: At the very top and bottom are the two regular bolts I removed to take off the caliper. When I first reached back there, I was looking for plastic caps and grabbed what I guess is the bleed valve. I reached down below the banjo bolt and found that nub sticking up but there's nothing there.


REAR: A totally different beast. I did NOT do brake work on this. I had taken it off only a week or so prior when replacing shocks. Partially hidden behind the bleed valve and then immediately below the cylinder-shaped area of the caliper, are the two plastic caps which cover the access to the smooth attachment bolts for the caliper (slider pins?)

 

[Plati]

Sorry, I'm not trying to annoy you ... just dont think we're talking the same language. The way I see it, you didnt take the caliper off, you disassembled the caliper, took one side off and left the other side attached to the wheel. Never seen brakes done like that. As long as you know what youre doing.

 

[hawkman71]

I didn't disassemble the caliper. That is the caliper. There is what I'd call a caliper bracket, that holds the caliper in place. That's all that remained attached to the hub. I've done lots of brake pad jobs. I always remove the caliper - with the difference being that the brake pads are usually clipped into the caliper and need to be popped out.


Rather than take my own off and take pictures, I just googled the subject, and here are some that reflect what I did. The labeling was on some of them already.

 

[Atman246]

I have to weigh in here. In the above picture,what you call the caliper mounting bolt is actually what I call the caliper "web" mounting bolt. The web holds the pads and anti rattle clips. What you refer to as slider bolts are actually the caliper mounting bolts. And yes,there are sliders. Those bolts go into the sliders. If those mounts don't slide in and out of the web,there's your problem.They seize,very common. I remove the sliders,remove the rubbers and wire wheel the sliders. A small thin wire brush mounted to a drill cleans out the holes. relube with caliper slide grease(not to much as the sliders won't go back in all the way due to hydrolock). Reassemble and all is good. All disc brake setups have some kind of a slider setup. They have to,otherwise pads would wear out in no time.
Which leads me to my next question,someone here said his caliper "fell" off. How?? It's inside the wheel. It would make a shitload of noise before hand,and the pedal would go to the floor because the flex line ripped open. I'm guessing that he meant his pad fell off. If it got thin enough,it could slide out between the web and the rotor. Just my two cents..
Happy new year everybody.

 

[1955moose]

I think that's what he meant. Pad slid out of caliper somehow. I was noticing in your picks, you have regular head bolts, looks like 10 mm, can't tell. My 2000 uses 2 T45 plus torx bolts to attach the caliper to the bracket. I didn't pay attention what year your vehicle is. Apparently they changed them at some point. Do the 2nd and 3rd gens use torx? Or regular 6 point bolt's?

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[Plati]

Well, ok. I learned something, although I'm not sure what. I guess when I do brakes I take the (caliper bracket, caliper mount, or web) off and the caliper comes off with it. That way I can get right to the rotor and have all those rusty parts in hand so I can clean them up real nice. Like I said, I'm not much of a mechanic and never learned from anyone just got tools and figured out how to get the job done ... maybe not the right way!

Either way ... my original point was maybe the problem with one pad wearing and the other side not wearing was slider sticking, not greased. Just trying to save you the cost of a caliper or two and fix the root cause.

 

[hawkman71]

Can't respond in full at this time but if I said my "caliper fell off", then I mis-typed.

 

[Atman246]

Mr. Moose, the third gens use 6 point bolts for the web and caliper mounts. I believe 18mm for the web and 13mm for the calipers.
Mr Sticker,I usually do a brake service on my vehicles twice a year,and that would be pulling everything off. That way,i can usually catch something before it becomes a problem. It doesn't help to live in a salty snowy environment for parts of the year. I wire brush the points where the pads and clips sit and a little antiseize on both sides of the clip to make the pads go back in easier. Depending on the pads,sometimes you can flip them around to keep the wear even.
As for turning rotors,with the cost of rotors being so cheap to buy(made in China),it's just not worth turning them.
Again,my two cents.

 

[Atman246]

Hawkman,no worries. Terminology is key. I've had 35 plus years in the trade to learn. My wife gets pissed at me when I try to correct her on things. Now I just try to keep my mouth shut,happy wife,happy life.

 

[1955moose]

Atman, if she ever posted here, she'd go beserk with all the bantering and correction going on. She'd do it once, then toss her I phone right at the wall, or window of your pretty SUV!

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[hawkman71]

...I was noticing in your picks, you have regular head bolts, looks like 10 mm, can't tell. My 2000 uses 2 T45 plus torx bolts to attach the caliper to the bracket. I didn't pay attention what year your vehicle is. Apparently they changed them at some point. Do the 2nd and 3rd gens use torx? Or regular 6 point bolt's?

Neither the front nor rear of my vehicle (2011 EL) had Torx for removing what I removed. (I didn't touch the caliper bracket/web but I'm pretty sure they are bolts, too. In the rear, I inserted a socket with a hex head on it. Can't recall size but I think I wrote it down somewhere. On the front, they were 13mm bolts, I believe.

 

[hawkman71]

This is what I expected, sort of, to see. These are screenshots from a youtube video. Supposedly a 2007-2015 Nav/Exp how-to.

He's doing the fronts but he has the plastic caps / hex head / slide pin-screws that you see in the pics. He's removing the same part (caliper) that I am but a different setup. What he does here is very similar to the rear on my exped. - although I've never completely removed and looked at the pins. I've just pulled them out far enough to free the caliper.

 

[TobyU]

These fords are just different front vs back as most cars are.

The fronts have 2 13 or 14 mm bolts that hold them on. That's all.

The bolts screw into the sliding pin with the rubber boot on it.
When the caliper is "off" still hooked to hose and sitting on control arm as most people do it. you want to make sure those pins slide freely. They often do not.
You can pull them all the way out and clean and regrease or stick the Lucas Chain Lube (I'm in love with the stuff) inside the boot and spray it good then twist and work the pin around and in and out. I probably shouldn't talk like than after saying I'm in love with a can of spray lube...

Always make sure when you put the caliper back on that the long end of the pin is truned to it fits properly in the groove at the bolt hole. I really like there calipers . But no perfect design.

I like not having to have the big clips to hold pads into piston and outer on caliper, but I have had some issues with the little clips that sit on the caliper bracket that the pads sit on.
Someone asked above about grease. Most people put some grease on these and pad tip were it will slide.

I don't prefer caliper brackets but most cars have gone to it.
I think it is almost a design requirement if you have unitized wheel bearing hubs but maybe not.
No it can't be because the midsize GM FWD for years had hubs and no removable bracket. One you popped the caliper off the rotor fell right off in your hand..The way I like it.
They made the caliper "bracket" into the steering knuckle I guess.

You can rarely buy just the caliper in stock anymore. At least for older ones. They know how bad the pins stick so they only stock it with bracket for like 12-14 more so not too bad.
But I can clean and lube them for free or get new rubber boots for 3-4 IF they would stock them or new pins for 6-8 again if they carry them.

I have had to on rear of old Taurus have to drill out a broken pin in a rear caliper bracket.
That sucked. One on a Saturn once too.
I would pay the 15.00 any day instead of doing that, but on those days it was junkyard for caliper bracket or dealer at over 80 bucks.

Those ford calipers are easy to rebuild if they have kits. I ordered the last ones I did from O'Reilly for 5.85 each side. What a deal. These were on BIG box truck dually ones that were at least 60-80 each for reman ones.

Takes longer to get the thing jacked up and wheels off than to rebuilt the caliper.
Those big and old fords don't have screws or bolts!! You just drive a flat about 1/4" bar like pin in the top and bottom.
Works great though. Rear disks on E350 or E Super duty was this way and my old 79 F-350 I think too.

BTW.

While I'm on that. I had the show truck that was on the front cover or Peterson's Off Road magazine in sept of 1990 I think was the date.

A guy up in northern OH built it. He built some bigger better stuff too from what I heard later.
I bought it in Dayton, OH from a kid in 1992. Sold it in Indy Aug 23, 1995.
Was at a car show in Kettering ( old Hail and Hearty- real old Parkmor Chicken) and a guy came up and said "I know the guy who built your truck"
Kinda cool!

Will try a pic.
Anyone ever seen this beast? I have never seen it surface or a pic of it after I sold it.

79 F350 351M/400, 5 speed, dana 60 rear, 44 ground hawgs