Broken exhaust studs? 3.5 EB

[frostylemonade]

Hi friends,

We recently bought a 2017 Expedition (to replace a 2008 Expedition with 200k on it) from private party and I broke my rule of always seeing a cold engine start when buying a used car... Anyway, exhaust leaks /ticking sounds from passenger side for ~15 seconds on cold startup, and then you can hear exhaust leak / screeching sound when using light boost until engine gets fully to temp. After some reading, I believe I have one or more broken exhaust studs. I took a peek under the hood to verify my suspicion, but it's so cramped in there I couldn't get a good visual. But I'm 99% sure, unless someone has ideas on what else the sound could be.

Anyway, I have done some internet searching, and would like your opinion as to how to proceed. I got a good deal on the car and believe I could sell it (disclosing the issue of course) without too much loss. Or if I go ahead and get the repairs done, I could see this being a reliable car for several years to come (currently 105k on the 2017).

-Thoughts on whether to sell (and continue driving the 2008, which has been very reliable but the high mileage is starting to concern me some), or go ahead with the repairs?

-Is it safe to drive in the meantime, or should I avoid driving it?

-Assuming I do get the work done, would you recommend an independent shop or stick to the dealer?

-I found the BD Diesel and CR Performance exhaust manifolds online - any experience with these vs replacing with Ford stock ones?

-Any other parts I should suggest replacing while they are in there?

-Finally, and I know this could be a huge range, but any idea of the total cost of repair?


Thank you so much for any advice. I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can before I go blindly pay the dealer *** without knowing what I'm getting into. Other than this issue I'm really liking the vehicle. My 5.4 has been great to us, but the 3.5 EB is a totally different animal, and getting 25% better gas mileage doesn't hurt either!

 

[DoubleAction]

How can you tell it has studs broken. Could just need manifolds replaced. Either way they can be removed if broken it's just the rearmost ones, if broken, that are nearly impossible to remove without dropping engine. Mine has one broken bolt but a muffler guy used some high temp caulk and it hasn't leaked in a year since getting the manifolds done.

 

[JasonH]

Is there no recourse from the seller? The vehicle was probably sold to avoid having to repair this issue. I got a quote for around $900 from an independent shop to get a manifold (NOT both) replaced. Ford has released updated stainless ones that replace the original cast ones. I suggest going with the Ford or you can get really spendy and go with Full Race, which are twice the price but have better flow and larger openings for less heat buildup and quicker spool. Of course, if you don't go with the OEM replacement, you'll be paying for two. Both should likely be replaced anyway to ensure the turbo spool characteristics match. The stainless ones support higher temps and are more durable. The CRP and BD Diesel ones are still cast and may fail. I vaguely recall someone posting a photograph of BD or CRP ones with a slight sag. The cab can be removed to simplify this repair, as the coolant and oil lines should be replaced at the same time. One line connects to the rear of the block and is very difficult to reach without the cab being lifted. If you plan on keeping the vehicle, I would bite the bullet and get the work done. It should be good for thousands of miles with this issue fixed. Below is a lengthy discussion about the upgraded parts from Full Race.

Full Race Formline Cast Manifolds (Ecoboost 3.5L 2011-2020)

Full Race added some awesome new products that will be available next year. Significantly improved cast turbo manifolds made from 347 stainless steel. They are also a direct swap for the OEM turbo manifolds. Take my wallet already. Video: 2011-2016 3.5L Ecoboost...

www.f150ecoboost.net

 

[frostylemonade]

Thanks for the comments. I’m traveling for work this week, but when I am home I plan to use a mirror to try to confirm if it is a broken stud. Until I confirm that, and have a price estimate to fix, I’m not entirely sure how to approach the seller. I honestly don’t believe they knew of the issue, but maybe I’m trying too hard to see the good in people.

In any case, is it safe to drive like this until I can get it fixed?

 

[JExpedition07]

I would fix the 2017, the 2008 is a pretty old truck at this point. Ford has released updated parts. I do not know why Ford used such crappy OEM fasteners on the 3.5 EcoBoost and 5.4 Triton exhaust manifolds. They both tend to corrode and pop the studs in half after corrosion takes place (particularly the curbside splash side)

 

[JasonH]

In any case, is it safe to drive like this until I can get it fixed?

Not sure if my stud broke, but my manifold has been leaking for at least 18 months. We used to only hear it in the winter, but it's gotten progressively worse. Apart from the sound and a bit more lag it hasn't impacted my ability to drive the vehicle.

 

[frostylemonade]

Finally got around to crawling under it this morning. Confirmed broken rearmost stud on the passenger side Going to take it to a few places this afternoon to get estimates. Thanks again for the comments.

 

[gtr09]

These manifolds are defective by design and break often, some people are on their third or 4th one. There is a long way between the rear most stud and the next one. There is a company that makes an upgraded manifold that adds 3 more studs. The holes for the extra studs are already in the block. Granted you should probably do both if you don't replace one side with OEM, but if I were keeping the car for awhile, might as well fix it once and for all.

Exhaust Manifold Kit Ford F150 3.5L ECOBOOST 2011-2016 - 1043001

The 2011-2016 Ford 3.5L has an inherent design flaw where not all of the OE stud locations are utilized by the OE manufacturer which leads to warped exhaust...

us.bdpower.com

 

[tcbrad98]

I’ve had both of the exhaust manifolds replaced due to warping and breaking the rear bolt causing leaks at startup.

They didn’t drop the engine, replaced both manifolds with newer ford part with more stud holes.

2017 Limited EB

 

[Utah Driver]

How many miles on it? Just curious because my 16 isn't leaking yet. I don't tow anything heavier than a dirt bike so hoping mine will last for a long time.

 

[frostylemonade]

105,000 miles. Previous owner used it to occasionally tow a small-medium camper (maybe 5,000lbs) but otherwise its just been a kid hauler.

Called around a little and was surprised at the wide range of answers from $1200 on the low end, which was a reputable independent shop quoting Napa manifolds, which I'm not going to use. I'm still undecided between updated Ford or BD Power. So realistically that shop is probably closer to $2000 by the time I use decent manifolds (more if I used BD Power because I would likely want both sides done). The high end was the Ford dealer, who acted like they've never heard of the problem, weren't aware of the updated Ford manifolds, and wanted to quote replacing the cylinder head as a worst case scenario. Give me a break.

I'm pretty torn. Thinking about ordering the BD Power and trying it myself. I'm fairly decent wrenching on things, but still intimidated by this project, both from a technical standpoint and considering the time commitment involved.

Or maybe we should just keep the 08 for now. Despite the higher miles, it's been a great rig and I believe it's still got some life left.

 

[gtr09]

I think the Ford expected hours is about 9 for this job, I'd plan for 12 at least. Doesn't seem complicated just about as miserable as it can get, esp if the stud is broken off inside the block. Here's a pretty good video. And another one. Don't forget you need a bunch of other parts, too, depending on what you take apart.

OEM Gaskets & Hardware Required:

• 1x HL7Z-9448-B 2017-2020 DS F150 3.5L Manifold Gasket (L / DS) Comes with BD power kit
• 1x HL7Z-9448-A 2011-2020 PS F150 3.5L Manifold Gasket (R / PS) Comes with BD power kit
• 2x HL3Z-9T516-A 2017+ F150 3.5L Turbocharger Oil Inlet Feed Seal
• 2x FT4Z-6N652-E 2017+ F150 3.5L Turbocharger Oil Drain Seal #1
• 2x HL3Z-00815-A 2017+ F150 3.5L Turbocharger Oil Drain Seal #2
• 6x FT4Z-6N652-D 2017+ F150 3.5L Water Inlet & Outlet Tube Seal #1
• 4x HL3Z-6N652-A 2017+ F150 3.5L Water Inlet & Outlet Tube Seal #2
• 6x W715673-S900 2017+ Turbocharger Mounting Bolt F150 3.5L & Raptor
• 4x W520514-S440 2017+ Downpipe Nut F150 3.5L (Recommended)

(The following only required if the Downpipe adaptor is separated / New turbochargers are installed )

• 2x BL3Z-9450-A 2017+ F150 3.5L Down Pipe Gasket
• 4x W716667-S900 2017+ Downpipe Stud F150 3.5L

2017 F150 & RAPTOR REQUIREMENTS

• 1x HL3Z-9448-C 2017 F150 3.5L Turbo Turbine Inlet Gasket (L / DS)
• 1x HL3Z-9450-A 2017 F150 3.5L Turbo Turbine Inlet Gasket (R / PS)

 

[JasonH]

I would go with the upgraded Ford part over BD Diesel. It's stainless, which is supposed to do a better job of handling the heat. The issue with the original wasn't just the studs...they keep the manifold flange affixed to the block. The manifold flange itself was deforming, and the studs are not intended to, nor strong enough, to prevent this from occurring. The updated Ford part is supposed to be more resistant to deformation. If you're not towing heavy, it may not be an issue either way. In comparison to the Ford parts, the Full Race parts are supposed to have better geometry, which reduces backflow and may help the manifolds stay cooler. They're around twice as much as the Ford parts, but this job is expensive, so makes sense to go with the best possible solution for the extra $$$.

On the Gen 1 for this model year, there is an oil feedline from the rear of the block. By all accounts, it's very difficult to access and to secure the oil properly. I feel like this is properly done as a cab off job. There are videos showing the installation process. I think this is one of those things you need to be really committed to tackling for the repair. It's really tight in there.

 

[MidnightBruce]

My 2016 just started to leak on The driver side and I have confirmed that I have a broken rear stud but I can see the studs sticking out past the manifold slightly. Not sure if these can be replaced without taking the manifold off because I would love to be able to do that and just fix the one stud.