Consumer reports Expedition is trash?

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cosauto

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Good point blakwing42. I agree, I used to look at CR too. My father got it. Were talking like mid 70s. I ran a rental company. Had all 3 detroit products in my fleet . The Nova was terrible . Which quality control was terrible in the 70s. CR rated it better than the Granada. That's when I said CR was full of crap. Like I said all the Detroit 3 had quality issues . But the Ford was a much better product. Now fast forward , today all they promote is the *** crap. which annoys the hell out of me. It makes me sad that the majority of Americans think foreign products are better. I own a recon shop and sell cars . The foreign crap is not better. Some of them are good cars , but not better. Just my opinion. But I speak from experience. Now I'm retired.
 

carymccarr

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Good point blakwing42. I agree, I used to look at CR too. My father got it. Were talking like mid 70s. I ran a rental company. Had all 3 detroit products in my fleet . The Nova was terrible . Which quality control was terrible in the 70s. CR rated it better than the Granada. That's when I said CR was full of crap. Like I said all the Detroit 3 had quality issues . But the Ford was a much better product. Now fast forward , today all they promote is the *** crap. which annoys the hell out of me. It makes me sad that the majority of Americans think foreign products are better. I own a recon shop and sell cars . The foreign crap is not better. Some of them are good cars , but not better. Just my opinion. But I speak from experience. Now I'm retired.

Add another lifelong ford/brand loyalist to the “I hate CR” list.
 

blakwing42

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Add another lifelong ford/brand loyalist to the “I hate CR” list.
So rather than address the points raised you chose Ad hominem attacks?

Lets look into your initial rebuttal. CR is a single source. They have gathered and collated their data. Unfortunately there's no way to verify the data they've collected or it's veracity. And unlike a true blind poll a CR poll suffers from biases and are conditional right out of the gate. First. CR polls are contributed to by CR readers and subscribers. So the data set is limited from the word go. Next would be the condition that you must take affirmative action to complete their polls. You are also limited to the specific questions asked in the poll.

Now. All that being said you must also contend with the flaws in methodology. Is it a true representation of the the buying public? In a word.. No. You have a subset of the CR readers who diligently complete their annual surveys. These are people who enjoy taking a hour or more out of their lives to report on every car, truck, appliance, tool, etc that they own. Next you have 2 more sets of people. Those who rush to the poll to glow about their purchase.. or those who wish to complain. Proven human nature and studies on polling show us time and time again that a person who feels dissatisfied is orders of magnitude more likely to go out of their way to complain or speak up than someone who is satisfied. So.. on that alone it is enough to disqualify the CR polling as scientific and shuffle it into the personal opinion/anecdote bin. Because if you have a perfectly functioning item, vehicle, whatever.. It is merely as you'd expect it to be. What need would you have to sing it's praises? It's impossible to excel or go above the expectations that it will simply work. Therefore, out of a group of owners, based on nothing but collected polling and people with issues, real or imagined, will far outnumber those who have none in it's data set due to nothing more than predictable human nature. That is not a scientific study of failure rates or statistical process control. It's opinion.
Which is why I stated above. It's a single source. A collection of opinions and should be taken as such.

Now. Lets look at the data. 2018 was the first model year of a new car. It is expected that there will be issues that will be tweaked. However, that said, it's absolutely astonishing the turnaround Ford made from the 2018 (most unreliable vehicle in existence (tongue firmly in cheek)) to the 2019 model year. Looking at the 2019 year it's nothing but double green checks across the board. That's simply an amazing turnaround for a vehicle that, near as makes no difference, 100% the same components as the prior year. It's the same engine. The same transmission. The same electronics. Why the disparity? Second year vehicle improvements are mostly down to manufacturing processes and better fitment corrections during assembly. Neither of which contribute to the overall "reliability" of a vehicle. So where's the issue? Could it be that you have a large subset of people, who suffer from early adopter syndrome and are looking for any and everything to complain about coupled with a group of enthusiastic "I'm first!" poll takers.. Or is it that the vehicle is truly "trash", as is the claim? A "Trash" vehicle that, as I mentioned, went from garbage to the absolute highest reliability rating in a single year while changing nothing?

And here's the crux of the issue. Everything I've said above holds equally true for their "reliability review" of the 2018 Expedition. The 2019 Expedition. The 2017 Tahoe. The shark vacuum cleaner. A GE stove. The Vizio line of televisions. Toro lawnmowers and every other product reviewed or rated by Consumer reports. It is a source. A single source of opinions compiled into the product equivalent of a soundbite. I can get the exact same experience digging into the reviews on Amazon.. But in actuality Amazon is a better source of data as I have the ability to see the individual "poll" results and exactly what they had to say.

To your defense of their testing methodology.. CR has been scrutinized innumerable times for stacking the deck in product reviews. Comparing "like" vehicles that are optioned to put a hand on the scale for a particular vehicle. For instance.. Equipping a Toyota Tundra with the optional 5.7, the optional 4:30 axle and comparing it against a Silverado with a base engine and stock 3.73 axle. Then declaring that the Toyota Tundra is a superior truck in towing, acceleration, etc.
CR does this frequently. However they claim that they order their vehicles using a "most purchased" strategy to compile a roster of vehicles that are most often purchased by customers..
That's not a apples to apples comparison. It is flawed in every possible way. CR suffers from biases just like every other source.

As to your last, supposedly dismissive coup de grace.
Brand loyalist? Did you actually bother to look into my signature?
Wranglers, Gladiators, Volvos, Buicks, Lincolns and Fords.. And to that list I could also add a couple toyota's and a subaru. And in my personal anecdote I spoke specifically of a Dodge 1500 Tradesman. I could go into the specifics of why I purchased each and every vehicle I've ever owned and "Individual Automaker" would never make it on the list.
How does any of the above translate into "brand loyalty"?
 
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blakwing42

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Fozzy

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I use to subscribe to CR. But today I feel Home Depot, Lowe’s, Best Buy, youtube and Amazon give you a more accurate rating of appliances, tools and electronics. As far as vehicles go I alway check the forums and see what the main topics are related to the problems. Most forums have tons of problem posts and what size tire fits posts. Then I ultimately buy what best fits my needs. If it is prone to a few problems then I get the extended warranty. If it’s a first Gen then I take the risk and add the warranty.


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mwl001

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Yikes. Never to be "truted"? That's an opinion piece, what little evidence is in there is court cases where the Consumer's Union was found not guilty. If that blog post does anything it proves the inverse, having the opinion that CR is bad is perfectly fine but he doesn't make the case from what I saw. They definitely DO order their vehicles based on what is likely to be produced and sold in the greatest numbers, there are two reasons this makes sense. You're trying to sell your product (reviews) to the greatest number of potential customers (not just people who like to read about the latest and greatest), and also the most popular models do compete with each other, even if that's not "fair" or apples-to-apples. Just because Toyota no longer offers a V6 in their full size pickup doesn't mean you can't compare it to another truck that's been built to do the same things in a different way. And yes, something can be too new to rate its reliability because it's not a judgment call, it's based on survey data.

I have this complaint with TFL's tow comparisons; sometimes when they compare directly they tow at or near the max rating for each truck, which is sort of a nebulous made up marketing number. They should really just tow the exact same load (within safety guidelines) and then do their ratings - this truck says it can tow 5000 more lbs than the next one, but if that's true shouldn't it tow a lower amount much easier? Or at equivalent loads are they basically the same? Since few people tow near that limit it's much more useful to more people to know how well something tows a typical load.
 

carymccarr

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So rather than address the points raised you chose Ad hominem attacks?

Lets look into your initial rebuttal. CR is a single source. They have gathered and collated their data. Unfortunately there's no way to verify the data they've collected or it's veracity. And unlike a true blind poll a CR poll suffers from biases and are conditional right out of the gate. First. CR polls are contributed to by CR readers and subscribers. So the data set is limited from the word go. Next would be the condition that you must take affirmative action to complete their polls. You are also limited to the specific questions asked in the poll.

Now. All that being said you must also contend with the flaws in methodology. Is it a true representation of the the buying public? In a word.. No. You have a subset of the CR readers who diligently complete their annual surveys. These are people who enjoy taking a hour or more out of their lives to report on every car, truck, appliance, tool, etc that they own. Next you have 2 more sets of people. Those who rush to the poll to glow about their purchase.. or those who wish to complain. Proven human nature and studies on polling show us time and time again that a person who feels dissatisfied is orders of magnitude more likely to go out of their way to complain or speak up than someone who is satisfied. So.. on that alone it is enough to disqualify the CR polling as scientific and shuffle it into the personal opinion/anecdote bin. Because if you have a perfectly functioning item, vehicle, whatever.. It is merely as you'd expect it to be. What need would you have to sing it's praises? It's impossible to excel or go above the expectations that it will simply work. Therefore, out of a group of owners, based on nothing but collected polling and people with issues, real or imagined, will far outnumber those who have none in it's data set due to nothing more than predictable human nature. That is not a scientific study of failure rates or statistical process control. It's opinion.
Which is why I stated above. It's a single source. A collection of opinions and should be taken as such.

Now. Lets look at the data. 2018 was the first model year of a new car. It is expected that there will be issues that will be tweaked. However, that said, it's absolutely astonishing the turnaround Ford made from the 2018 (most unreliable vehicle in existence (tongue firmly in cheek)) to the 2019 model year. Looking at the 2019 year it's nothing but double green checks across the board. That's simply an amazing turnaround for a vehicle that, near as makes no difference, 100% the same components as the prior year. It's the same engine. The same transmission. The same electronics. Why the disparity? Second year vehicle improvements are mostly down to manufacturing processes and better fitment corrections during assembly. Neither of which contribute to the overall "reliability" of a vehicle. So where's the issue? Could it be that you have a large subset of people, who suffer from early adopter syndrome and are looking for any and everything to complain about coupled with a group of enthusiastic "I'm first!" poll takers.. Or is it that the vehicle is truly "trash", as is the claim? A "Trash" vehicle that, as I mentioned, went from garbage to the absolute highest reliability rating in a single year while changing nothing?

And here's the crux of the issue. Everything I've said above holds equally true for their "reliability review" of the 2018 Expedition. The 2019 Expedition. The 2017 Tahoe. The shark vacuum cleaner. A GE stove. The Vizio line of televisions. Toro lawnmowers and every other product reviewed or rated by Consumer reports. It is a source. A single source of opinions compiled into the product equivalent of a soundbite. I can get the exact same experience digging into the reviews on Amazon.. But in actuality Amazon is a better source of data as I have the ability to see the individual "poll" results and exactly what they had to say.

To your defense of their testing methodology.. CR has been scrutinized innumerable times for stacking the deck in product reviews. Comparing "like" vehicles that are optioned to put a hand on the scale for a particular vehicle. For instance.. Equipping a Toyota Tundra with the optional 5.7, the optional 4:30 axle and comparing it against a Silverado with a base engine and stock 3.73 axle. Then declaring that the Toyota Tundra is a superior truck in towing, acceleration, etc.
CR does this frequently. However they claim that they order their vehicles using a "most purchased" strategy to compile a roster of vehicles that are most often purchased by customers..
That's not a apples to apples comparison. It is flawed in every possible way. CR suffers from biases just like every other source.

As to your last, supposedly dismissive coup de grace.
Brand loyalist? Did you actually bother to look into my signature?
Wranglers, Gladiators, Volvos, Buicks, Lincolns and Fords.. And to that list I could also add a couple toyota's and a subaru. And in my personal anecdote I spoke specifically of a Dodge 1500 Tradesman. I could go into the specifics of why I purchased each and every vehicle I've ever owned and "Individual Automaker" would never make it on the list.
How does any of the above translate into "brand loyalty"?

You’re not a big FoMoCofan? Ok. I stand corrected. In my experience brand loyalists HATE CR. Its not an ad hominem just an observation.

Your points aren’t really worth arguing. CR’s polling “issues” would be consistent across brands and not biased towards one brand or another. Again, I believe that CR does a good job in directionally getting feedback on vehicles from the public.

As for non automotive testing? Amazon reviews are bought and sold, this has been made clear for years. Heck, half the stuff I get from Amazon has a card from the seller with a discount, free product or warranty extension offer if I leave a 5 star review.

I prefer a non for profit to review my toasters.

That said, although I enjoy reading CR’s stuff i would never base a car choice off of it because to me a car choice is more emotional than analytical.

At the end of the day it seems CR really upsets you...so why read it?

Luckily for me, my subscription was just renewed as a xmas gift!!

Cheers and merry Christmas!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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blakwing42

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You’re not a big FoMoCofan? Ok. I stand corrected. In my experience brand loyalists HATE CR. Its not an ad hominem just an observation.

Your points aren’t really worth arguing. CR’s polling “issues” would be consistent across brands and not biased towards one brand or another. Again, I believe that CR does a good job in directionally getting feedback on vehicles from the public.

As for non automotive testing? Amazon reviews are bought and sold, this has been made clear for years. Heck, half the stuff I get from Amazon has a card from the seller with a discount, free product or warranty extension offer if I leave a 5 star review.

I prefer a non for profit to review my toasters.

That said, although I enjoy reading CR’s stuff i would never base a car choice off of it because to me a car choice is more emotional than analytical.

At the end of the day it seems CR really upsets you...so why read it?

Luckily for me, my subscription was just renewed as a xmas gift!!

Cheers and merry Christmas!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm ambivalent to it. It's an opinion aggregator. It boils down the opinions of others and aggregates the data. As long as you know that going in it has inherent value for what it is.
As a neutral arbiter into the "reliability" of a make, model or line of anything it's value is incredibly diminished as it lacks the proper scope and depth needed to make that judgement. It's sample size is ridiculously small and the specific failures or issues are almost wholly undefined other than extremely broad categories.

To accurately gauge something like reliability you would need to aggregate the total number of units sold and compare that against the rate of failure. And once you had those numbers you'd have to control against the failed parts being used in other products. eg.. How many pentastar engines are out there and what does it mean that the Wrangler threw a rod? Is that all Wranglers? Did the transmission have a part in it? Have we seen similar failure in other Wranglers? How about Ram 1500's? Chargers? Minivans? or any of about a billion other Chrysler products they cram that engine into? And from there you can BEGIN to make arguments.

Add to that there is no way to individually address the data. To provide yet another anecdote. When we got our new Gladiator I took it back to the dealership because it was a rough/difficult shift to get it into 4H and 4L. That's a transmission issue. Potentially serious. That data goes into the survey.
Once I got the truck back from the dealer I found it still had the issue. But was assured "That's just the way they are".. And to solidify that fact I was taken to another Gladiator and a Wrangler Rubicon.. They all presented in the exact same way. So the takeaway is that the new trans/transfer cases are nowhere near as smooth as our '03 Rubicon... (aside.. calling the shifting of any Jeep "smooth" as a comparison should speak volumes about stating that another seems "rough or difficult")
But in that specific example. That's a serious "reliability" ding against the Gladiator per Consumer Reports.

And really.. That's the long and short of it. It is a source of information. It is neither particularly good nor bad. It is a single source of information that should be considered along with numerous others when making any kind of substantial purchase and it should be taken for what it is, warts and all.
 

mwl001

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It's true that in a perfect world there would be more and better data. However I think we can agree that a source for objective data better than CR doesn't currently exist. So I have sympathy for their weaknesses just because nobody else does as good of a job, and they battle all of these sample of one reliability "experts" all over YouTube and the rest of the internet.

Consolidation and aggregation of opinions has extremely dubious value; opinions represent individuals, not some bigger idea, and things like that blog post crowd out facts and actual data, which is a bummer to me.
 

carymccarr

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I'm ambivalent to it. It's an opinion aggregator. It boils down the opinions of others and aggregates the data. As long as you know that going in it has inherent value for what it is.
As a neutral arbiter into the "reliability" of a make, model or line of anything it's value is incredibly diminished as it lacks the proper scope and depth needed to make that judgement. It's sample size is ridiculously small and the specific failures or issues are almost wholly undefined other than extremely broad categories.

To accurately gauge something like reliability you would need to aggregate the total number of units sold and compare that against the rate of failure. And once you had those numbers you'd have to control against the failed parts being used in other products. eg.. How many pentastar engines are out there and what does it mean that the Wrangler threw a rod? Is that all Wranglers? Did the transmission have a part in it? Have we seen similar failure in other Wranglers? How about Ram 1500's? Chargers? Minivans? or any of about a billion other Chrysler products they cram that engine into? And from there you can BEGIN to make arguments.

Add to that there is no way to individually address the data. To provide yet another anecdote. When we got our new Gladiator I took it back to the dealership because it was a rough/difficult shift to get it into 4H and 4L. That's a transmission issue. Potentially serious. That data goes into the survey.
Once I got the truck back from the dealer I found it still had the issue. But was assured "That's just the way they are".. And to solidify that fact I was taken to another Gladiator and a Wrangler Rubicon.. They all presented in the exact same way. So the takeaway is that the new trans/transfer cases are nowhere near as smooth as our '03 Rubicon... (aside.. calling the shifting of any Jeep "smooth" as a comparison should speak volumes about stating that another seems "rough or difficult")
But in that specific example. That's a serious "reliability" ding against the Gladiator per Consumer Reports.

And really.. That's the long and short of it. It is a source of information. It is neither particularly good nor bad. It is a single source of information that should be considered along with numerous others when making any kind of substantial purchase and it should be taken for what it is, warts and all.

Yeah, it’s not really an opinion aggregator though and if it were you should really like it because that’s what Amazon’s reviews are and I think you said you turn to those for information?

That’s the rub.


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