Is all the "fuel saving" tech really worth it in the long run?

[carymccarr]

I’ll bite. I’m relatively right wing/conservative. I still believe in climate change but anything human/ consumer driven is bad for the environment. Consumerism is the problem, buying a new truck every two years is the problem, buying new phones and tablets every year is the problem. Automotives and transport make up about 14% of emissions in the U.S. Industry/agriculture alone make up about 1/2 of emissions in comparison. I’m sick of reading articles by left wingers that ignore the statistics. You have less of a carbon footprint if you drive an old big block 454 Chevy than if you trade in and buy a new vehicle every two years. You are allowing the planets resources to be depleted and pollution to be expelled to manufacture a new product constantly. So no, you aren’t green if you buy a Tesla unless you keep it forever. You are only spot treating and we are doing it wrong. Then we can go on, you can’t control what other nations do, we are a fraction of the worlds emissions.

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Holding all human behavior constant the only thing that will drive down (or hold emission constant as populations grow) is further efficiency gains. And although we can’t control what other nations do we can lead by example and participate in agreements to curb emissions and invest in cleaner technology. The reciprocal of ‘if smaller countries won’t do it than neither will we!’ Is ‘if the largest, richest, most advanced country in the world won’t do it why would we?’

There was a day when conservatives were concerned about conservation. One of the reasons I strayed from the party (I am luckily enough to be able to vote both sides of the ballot now) is because they went full crazy uncle while also abandoning their conservationist values.

 

[Plati]

Holding all human behavior constant the only thing that will drive down (or hold emission constant as populations grow) is further efficiency gains. And although we can’t control what other nations do we can lead by example and participate in agreements to curb emissions and invest in cleaner technology. The reciprocal of ‘if smaller countries won’t do it than neither will we!’ Is ‘if the largest, richest, most advanced country in the world won’t do it why would we?’

There was a day when conservatives were concerned about conservation. One of the reasons I strayed from the party (I am luckily enough to be able to vote both sides of the ballot now) is because they went full crazy uncle while also abandoning their conservationist values.

JE brings up a widespread concern. I've talked to a LOT of people and I understand the point. We are in economic competition (war) with other countries (e.g. China). China has HUGE carbon emissions and the US does much better (already). Whats the point of US improving when they don't and they meanwhile have a competitive economic advantage over US in the meantime. Put us both on the same playing field and then we can talk. Are we going to go bankrupt to reduce our carbon emissions and let Chine eat our economic lunch? China has a big push now for electric vehicles. Is that for pollution reduction? No … its so they can dominate that industry in the coming years and crush our manufacturing even further. They will charge the batteries in those EVs with NEW coal fired power plants.

 

[carymccarr]

JE brings up a widespread concern. I've talked to a LOT of people and I understand the point. We are in economic competition (war) with other countries (e.g. China). China has HUGE carbon emissions and the US does much better (already). Whats the point of US improving when they don't and they meanwhile have a competitive economic advantage over US in the meantime. Put us both on the same playing field and then we can talk. Are we going to go bankrupt to reduce our carbon emissions and let Chine eat our economic lunch? China has a big push now for electric vehicles. Is that for pollution reduction? No … its so they can dominate that industry in the coming years and crush our manufacturing even further. They will charge the batteries in those EVs with NEW coal fired power plants.

Saying we shouldn’t do anything until every other country emits the same level of greenhouse pollutants that we do makes as much sense as saying we’re going to drink and drive as much as the drunkest driver out there because that’s only fair. It’s a logical fallacy.

Beyond that the US produces almost 2.5x more greenhouse pollutants per person than China...China is quite proactive in reducing their emissions and are already ahead of their 2020 pledge.

Oh and the atmosphere, rivers and lakes don’t care about the intent behind why someone stopped dumping into them...they’re just glad they aren’t flammable anymore.

 

[rjdelp7]

I read the first page and skipped to the last page, so I hope somebody brought up my point prior to now.

With all of the posts on the first page, not one person brought up climate change. Even with all of the divisiveness in our country today, climate change is by far the most important issue facing us right now.

We were headed in the right direction when we started implementing higher mpg standards, but now that policy is trying to be ended. We need to squeeze every mpg out of our vehicles we can before IC engines are obsolete.

Please think of our kids and grandkids and this planet. And, yes, fuel savings are "worth it".

Climate change is man made. You may recall between 1945 and 1970's, 1600 'above ground' nuclear test were performed. Mega tons blasted into the atmosphere, for 2 1/2 decades. It cooled the planet. Through treaties, these test were outlawed. The planet is returning back to its normal, warmer temps. Volcanic eruptions, let massive doses of CO2 and sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere. When there is a major eruption, it disrupts weather around the planet. China and India are the biggest polluters. Americans can stop buying goods, from these dirty countries.

 

[carymccarr]

China and India are the biggest polluters. Americans can stop buying goods, from these dirty countries.

We pollute 2x more than India.

 

[rjdelp7]

We pollute 2x more than India.

Wrong.

 

[carymccarr]

Wrong.

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions


https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/07/countries-emitting-most-greenhouse-gas/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions


https://www.wri.org/blog/2014/11/6-graphs-explain-world-s-top-10-emitters


https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/39548763


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[haviland]

It is difficult to have a discussion with people who feel they know more than 97% of the world's climate scientists. Then the discussion turns to ...other countries pollute more than/ as much as we do so let's not do anything.

 

[JExpedition07]

It is difficult to have a discussion with people who feel they know more than 97% of the world's climate scientists. Then the discussion turns to ...other countries pollute more than/ as much as we do so let's not do anything.

You’re wrong there, not what I am saying. Just pointing out many like to be selective in how they treat the environment and like to ignore real glaring problems. Statistics show we aren’t treating the issue right. We need to improve at a pace we can handle as a society.

 

[carymccarr]

Climate change is man made. You may recall between 1945 and 1970's, 1600 'above ground' nuclear test were performed. Mega tons blasted into the atmosphere, for 2 1/2 decades. It cooled the planet. Through treaties, these test were outlawed. The planet is returning back to its normal, warmer temps. Volcanic eruptions, let massive doses of CO2 and sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere. When there is a major eruption, it disrupts weather around the planet. China and India are the biggest polluters. Americans can stop buying goods, from these dirty countries.

Wrong.


https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/39548763

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/volcano-carbon-emissions/


https://phys.org/news/2019-10-humanity-emissions-times-greater-volcanoes.amp

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/volcanoes-still-not-source-increasing-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere/amp


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[Plati]

It is difficult to have a discussion with people who feel they know more than 97% of the world's climate scientists. Then the discussion turns to ...other countries pollute more than/ as much as we do so let's not do anything.

To be fair (good idea) … who said we shouldn't do anything? Why make that statement? That's the kind of warping that starts to distort the discussion. I think a lot of people feel we shouldn't go to the EXTREME of the Green New Deal "stuff" and handcuff our economy unless China does the same. Just a clarification. I'm not even saying that's the way I feel but I know a lot of people who do.

This country is doing a lot of things. Look at furnaces, refrigerators, etc. and all the energy star building practices. MPG improvements. Solar and wind energy development.

 

[carymccarr]

To be fair (good idea) … who said we shouldn't do anything? Why make that statement?

Because so far people have said:

1) it’s volcanos not man
2) the water and air are fine where I am
3) I’m not doing anything until China does
4) CAFE laws are pixie farts (whatever that means)
5) People should just stop buying stuff a lot

Maybe they do believe in strong environmental regulations and a push to continue cleaning up our own messes...

But they sure aren’t saying it very loudly or clearly that’s for sure.

 

[JExpedition07]

Because so far people have said:

1) it’s volcanos not man
2) the water and air are fine where I am
3) I’m not doing anything until China does
4) CAFE laws are pixie farts (whatever that means)
5) People should just stop buying stuff a lot

Maybe they do believe in strong environmental regulations and a push to continue cleaning up our own messes...

But they sure aren’t saying it very loudly or clearly that’s for sure.

A corporate average of 54.5 MPG mandated by cafe in the next five years is not attainable with current technology and advances with market trends. You can’t just set an imaginary unattainable bar in the air and tell industry and the consumer to stick it. Doesn’t work that way because you know physics and such. Sure we can do that with expensive hybrid technology, but how many people can buy these $80,000 hybrids? Not many, the market needs to catch up and get economies of scale and market share rolling on the tech. 5 years isn’t enough time, we know what happens when you rush tech. It fails.

 

[bobmbx]

Perspective

 

[JExpedition07]

Corporate averages act more like exponential slow growth, not sharp inclines. Ford sits now at 36.6 average fleet wide for passenger vehicles. Up marginally over time.

 

[bobmbx]

To be fair (good idea) … who said we shouldn't do anything? Why make that statement? That's the kind of warping that starts to distort the discussion. I think a lot of people feel we shouldn't go to the EXTREME of the Green New Deal "stuff" and handcuff our economy unless China does the same. Just a clarification. I'm not even saying that's the way I feel but I know a lot of people who do.

This country is doing a lot of things. Look at furnaces, refrigerators, etc. and all the energy star building practices. MPG improvements. Solar and wind energy development.

Energy Star is pretty much a scam. Its a self-reporting/certifying program, has no verification requirements, and there are no penalties for lying.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125912545

 

[bobmbx]

A corporate average of 54.5 MPG mandated by cafe in the next five years is not attainable with current technology and advances with market trends. You can’t just set an imaginary unattainable bar in the air and tell industry and the consumer to stick it. Doesn’t work that way because you know physics and such. Sure we can do that with expensive hybrid technology, but how many people can buy these $80,000 hybrids? Not many, the market needs to catch up and get economies of scale and market share rolling on the tech. 5 years isn’t enough time, we know what happens when you rush tech. It fails.

When an agenda-driven government puts itself in charge of social engineering with causes such as AGW/Climate Change, you get lots of Solyndras.

 

[carymccarr]

5 years isn’t enough time, we know what happens when you rush tech. It fails.

Or you land on the moon before your rivals. ;-)

 

[carymccarr]

Perspective
View attachment 32874

And amazingly they STILL have lower per capita greenhouse gas output than we do.

Shameful.

 

[carymccarr]

When an agenda-driven government puts itself in charge of social engineering with causes such as AGW/Climate Change, you get lots of Solyndras.

The bush green energy fund, filled with ‘solyndras’ ended up MAKING money.

Not every company in an investment fund pans out.