Is all the "fuel saving" tech really worth it in the long run?

[TobyU]

Vehicles all last longer now than ever. Remember the cars from the 70s & 80s with odometers that only had 5 digits? 100,000 miles was zero again. Cars that went 100,000 miles back then were rare. Now folks drive them 200,000 and more.

Although I agree there are many manufacturers that are terrible once they get above 80,000 miles with reliability, there are many others that do it with ease. It's not just electronics.


25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/cars-can-take-300000-miles.html/

How did I miss this thread, or did I???
Vehicles WERE lasting so much longer until recently for many.
Almost every engine out there would go 225-250k with minimal maintenance (even abusive oil change intervals) and never have even a valve cover off.
NOW they are expecting us to accept a $1200-$1800 repair to do phasers/chains/gears/tensioner/guides at often 110-150K .

They had engines figured out around 1992-1996. This is when they started lasting.
Yes, up to the 70s and 80s, by 100K they were ready for the junk yard or new engine IF the body hadn't rusted away to where you could put your fist through the visible holes.

I feel the golden age is over. The engine longevity WITHOUT REPAIRS is going the wrong way and it is almost entirely due to the push for increased MPG. VVT and large amount or infinite is a big part.
Honda has VTEC VVT a long time ago and no reduction of engine or major probs but that was only a 2 position VVT a simply pivoting finger.
The new variable stuff brings complicated parts to fail. Then, IF, internal combustion stays, they will evolve to mostly all being no camshaft direct solenoid actuated valves. This sounds GREAT on paper. A highway cam and a towing cam and a race cam whenever you choose!! You get unlimited cam profiles, variable duration lift and even ramp approach.
But when one sticks or opens at wrong time and bends the valve and you have a dead cyl that head has to come off to fix.....give me my old 2V 5.4 back.
You know they won't make these non interference. The way it almost always works.
To get power and MPG you have to squeeze everything and the valve will surely be interference if piston comes up when full opened.

The govt is mostly at fault for this with mandated MPG. People are fickle and trends come and go.
Remember the first SUVs then the giant ones and Hummers taking hold. You had some against them greatly.
Then gas went up high for a while and the desire lowered.
Gas has leveled out/lowered some for most and people are willing to have a large 6000lb SUV that gets 15-20 on the highway.

I feel we will see the trade off in longevity and increased repairs for the mileage push for a long time until they get the kinks worked out.
We might never get there as I alluded to. Electric and hybrid might get such a high share of market that the need to improve or evolve the ICE is a moot point.

Time will tell, but the a lot of the recent engine SUCK if you keep them a long time. You will not recoup your repair bill in fuel savings and that doesn't even consider aggravation and time being down.

 

[TobyU]

*hair tousle*

But isn't this what cars are about? So many models to choose from and every company wants you to buy theirs.

We don't "need" so many. We don't need selection and styles and colors.

Cars are for transportation and all of them will do that.
They cater to some of our likes to get our business.

 

[carymccarr]

But isn't this what cars are about? So many models to choose from and every company wants you to buy theirs.

We don't "need" so many. We don't need selection and styles and colors.

Cars are for transportation and all of them will do that.
They cater to some of our likes to get our business.

Exactly.

Therefore this irrational fear that soviets are going to force us all the rideshare electric leased Trabants is plain silly.

 

[762mm]

I'm of the same opinion as post #51 : the internal combustion engine was perfected in regards to fuel economy / longevity in the mid-1990's.

Take the Crown Victoria 4.6L V8 for example: that thing just WILL NOT die! It was made at a time where the "sweet spot" of engine design was in effect.


Other manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, etc) also started having more issues as they began cramming extra moving / electronic parts into the engines to please the EPA. There's just no way around it : added complexity always equals added problems. The question is: are these problems cheap enough to fix to warrant the "better gas mileage and extra HP"?

Some manufacturers are better than others at it, though... and I'm pissed to no end that Ford did such a crap job of designing our 5.4L 3V's oil distribution and timing components. If Toyota had manufactured that same engine, it would more than likely be solid for 300,000+ miles with only spark plug changes... leave it to the Big Three to make sure customers always have something to worry about when the warranty is up!

 

[Plati]

I guess this is an opinion.

There was a time (probably multiple times) when gas mileage was almost a National Security issue. As in … sending TOO MUCH money out of this country to buy petroleum at whatever price was required. Being dependent on the A-RABs. Also, not having enough fuel for the economy to work well. I remember the gas crisis in the 70's when you could only buy gas every other day. Well, I actually don't remember that … it WAS the 70's if you get my drift.

Then there is the air pollution problem. I know a bunch of people who post on here DONT CARE and don't even recognize that as a problem situation. That's is their right but they are in the minority and we are a Democracy so they don't get their way. Sowwy.

Since the advent of fracking, other modern inventions, the demise of PEAK OIL scenario that never happened, and a couple other little details (not going to bring up Climate Change) ...the situation has changed.

Bottom line is as life rolled along through the 70's to now (and looking forward)
our Democratic system decided that using less fuel was the way to go
and we get more fuel efficient vehicles that pollute the air less

It's not as simple as "what vehicle is cheaper to own" or "what vehicle is funnest to drive".
Its just a little more complex than that.

so there, I don't know if this makes sense or not
if its right or wrong or not, or if I like it … it just IS
and it doesn't matter since its just an OPINION

 

[TobyU]

Exactly.

Therefore this irrational fear that soviets are going to force us all the rideshare electric leased Trabants is plain silly.

Those commies won't tell me what to do!!!

 

[TobyU]

I guess this is an opinion.

There was a time (probably multiple times) when gas mileage was almost a National Security issue. As in … sending TOO MUCH money out of this country to buy petroleum at whatever price was required. Being dependent on the A-RABs. Also, not having enough fuel for the economy to work well. I remember the gas crisis in the 70's when you could only buy gas every other day. Well, I actually don't remember that … it WAS the 70's if you get my drift.

Then there is the air pollution problem. I know a bunch of people who post on here DONT CARE and don't even recognize that as a problem situation. That's is their right but they are in the minority and we are a Democracy so they don't get their way. Sowwy.

Since the advent of fracking, other modern inventions, the demise of PEAK OIL scenario that never happened, and a couple other little details (not going to bring up Climate Change) ...the situation has changed.

Bottom line is as life rolled along through the 70's to now (and looking forward)
our Democratic system decided that using less fuel was the way to go
and we get more fuel efficient vehicles that pollute the air less

It's not as simple as "what vehicle is cheaper to own" or "what vehicle is funnest to drive".
Its just a little more complex than that.

so there, I don't know if this makes sense or not
if its right or wrong or not, or if I like it … it just IS
and it doesn't matter since its just an OPINION

Very true. Things definitely do change over the decades but it's funny how some things come out and get overlooked and then other times they come out and take off. We had electric cars forever. The GM's ev1 was actually an awesome car and people were mad that they were forced to give them up! Then we had those yellow flat utilitarian looking Electric Cars 2 in the 70s or 80s. Because of all these other conditions like you mentioned, different things are priorities at different times
I would have to go back and reread the whole history of the GM ev1 or was it EV 2 but I believe it was based on the government almost forcing them to stop making that car and GM forcing people to give them back or sell them back. And now we have the government being the one forcing the fuel mileage and things on us.

I don't necessarily agree that because we are democracy that the majority gets to make the rules. There are plenty of things in this country that if it were actually put to a vote the majority would vote a different way. Sometimes it would be one of the largest majority votes you have ever seen which would only take about 68% to do that. But yet the lawmakers seem to do what they want to do often. I don't think the majority of the population of this country would vote for the government to have fuel mileage minimums but... When there is a vote and the people get to decide, all of the special interest groups and each side comes out with misleading information and scare tactics. So, they would convince a lot of people to vote for the government control and Cafe standards because they would scare us into thinking we're going to have massively dirty unbreathable air if we don't keep the government doing such a fine job.

 

[762mm]

MrSticker, I understand your points. There are, however, certain flaws with the logic -- to declare that it was a "democratic" decision is a bit of a stretch to say the least, for two reasons:

1) In North America, we live in a "representative democracy", where we elect officials (often belonging to only two political formations) to speak for the plebes in a dog & pony show fashion. Those officials can be bought off and have a personal agenda, or can further someone else's agenda. Those officials are often incompetent idiots (AOC, Bernie, Justin Trudeau, etc). In that scenario, the only way to get to the truth is to follow the money in order to understand the inner workings of said decisions.

2) The average person who owns a car doesn't know sweet-f-all about what makes it tick. All they know is where the gasoline or diesel goes in and where to turn the key in order for the vehicle to start. Even driving skills are often optional. Asking these people about "what's best" in automotive technology is pointless - you might just as well ask your cat!


Without going into the whole "climate debate" and how it is a 400-billion dollar per year industry with some very powerful banks heavily invested in it, suffice to say that ALL "green technology" is expensive to make, own and to maintain, with the modern internal combustion engine not being an exception.

In other words, we are all getting f**ked out of our hard-earned money in the name of some obscure and unrealistic goals (like stopping the planetary climate cycles which have been in effect for eons). Sugar-coating it with "because democracy" is a weak argument at best!

 

[carymccarr]

they would scare us into thinking we're going to have massively dirty unbreathable air if we don't keep the government doing such a fine job.

We did. In the 70’s. In California (and a few others) smog and other forms of air pollution were horrific.

Luckily our air quality has been increasing for decades.

Well. Except for the last two years where it’s gone backwards.

https://www.apnews.com/d3515b79af1246d08f7978f026c9092b

 

[carymccarr]

In other words, we are all getting f**ked out of our hard-earned money in the name of some obscure and unrealistic goals (like stopping the planetary climate cycles which have been in effect for eons). Sugar-coating it with "because democracy" is a weak argument at best!

Nah.

Some people just like drinking clean water and breathing fresh air...even Some conspiratorial anti science snowflakes that block opposing opinions like it.