New Headliner - Individual Light Stations Not Working *ONLY* When Doors Closed

[tdfuller]

I've got a very strange problem with my 2003 Ford Expedition, that I've been the sole owner of for 18 years.

Can someone provide a clue please?

I got the full interior headliner replaced a week ago. Since I've gotten it back, none of switches for the five individual light stations - two front center overhead console, two 2nd row, and one rear liftgate switch turn on their individual respective bulbs *ONLY* when the doors are closed. However, when a door is opened, each switch works perfectly to turn the respective bulb on and off at that station. Additionally, the master roll switch by the driver is correctly set.

Prior to getting my headliner replaced, what normally happens is when the driver master interior light roll switch is set to the "middle" position and the desired dimness of the driver console selected, the driver console lights are illuminated when it is dark. Then each of the five individual interior lights turns on, only when that station is switched on, or in the case of the two front center console lights - pushed on - or in the case of the rear tailgate light - slid to the on position. For instance, when traveling at night with our young kids for long distances, we would commonly have to yell at the kid to turn off the one interior light over the one kid's head to keep from distracting the driver when that interior switch was turned on and left on for too long, while driving.

Now, that won't be a problem! LOL! Because with all doors closed, none of the five individual seat station light switches is allowed to turn on that particular light, but open a door, all five switches work!

Thanks for any tips!

 

[tdfuller]

One more detail that may or may not help... I can turn on all five interior lights, with the doors closed, when I roll the driver dimmer switch all the way up. Also, with the roll dimmer switch all the way up, I can also turn each of the five interior light switch stations on and off invdividually.

 

[whtbronco]

If I'm reading it right it sounds like somehow the ground associated with the door open/close switch got reversed so the lights are grounded out when they should work and working when they should be grounded out. Just how in the heck that can happen I have no idea off hand.

 

[tdfuller]

Thank wht bronco......Any hunch I appreciate at this point.... Where is the door open/close switch?

 

[tdfuller]

So, I called the interior shop. The gentleman that did the work is very nice and curious himself. He said there are two harness plugs each with about 12 wires to the harness. Each plug is simply disconnected to bring the old headliner down for work, then when the new headliner is ready the plugs are reconnected and can only connect one way. They are in the rear passenger side near the rear AC unit. I hypothesized that perhaps one of the wires of the 12 or so that runs to the plug is cracked or broken and perhaps that one wire allows the five interior lights to be turned on/off when the doors are closed and the vehicle in motion. But he said the wires all appeared to be in great shape to him. He offered for me to come by just to recheck the two plugs, but nothing even remotely possible jumps out at him while brainstorming. I am also wondering if the interior cabin roll switch by the driver; if some microswitch subassembly to that allows the five interior lights to each turn on/off with the doors close and vehicle in motion, has somehow gone bad. But all theories at this point.

 

[whtbronco]

Not sure I'll be of more help, but I'm pondering this as well. This certainly is a strange issue.

Turns out the door ajar switch as Ford calls it is part of the door lock assembly so I suspect my idea is not very likely.

Here's what I found for 2004 in AllDataDIY, so I'd check these I think:
Disconnect the two electrical connectors at the right side C-pillar and one electrical connector at the left side C-pillar.

That's the only electrical connectors the removal procedure identifies aside from the auto dimming rear view mirror and compass sensor. Neither of these would cause your issue though.

 

[tdfuller]

Ok thanks for the tips! I have another update. And another clue perhaps. The five individual interior light switches actually do work, briefly, when the doors are all closed... I'll explain in a moment...

Last night, I removed the right side C-pillar cover. I could see the two electrical connector harnesses. They both look firmly seated and there appeared to be no broken wires nor loose wires in the harness connectors. I did not yet remove the left side C-pillar cover yet.

... However...

I noticed that just after all doors are closed, and for the what, 30 seconds or so the interior lights remain on before they are slowly dimmed to off, the five individual interior light switches each all do work. So maybe this issue has something to do with whatever component allows all interior lights to slowly dim to off. Even with the doors all closed, as long as the lights have not completely dimmed to off, the interior light switches each turn their respective bulb on and off.

It seems to me that this component that does the dimming 30 seconds after all doors are closed has malfunctioned, killing the ability to turn on an interior light, once the interior lights have completely dimmed off. At that point, only the driver roll dimmer switch moved to the full up (all interior lights on) position will then allow all the interior lights to turn on.

 

[whtbronco]

Probably not the accessory power delay relay, but it's located behind the passenger side front kick panel. it's easy enough to swap out. In fact you can probably just swap the accessory delay relay and the high beam relay and see what happens.


Here's the power diagram for the Accessory Delay Relay:

If you can remove one of the overhead light assemblies I think you should find 3 wires on each one. See what ya got at one of those connectors. Similar to this:


I can't seem to find a specific module for the Accessory Delay like I expect to.

Keep in mind this is all for my '04 which is likely to be very similar and "maybe" the same.

 

[tdfuller]

Ok thank you whtbronco. I will start by swapping the accessory delay relay and the high beam relay and see what happens.

 

[Trainmaster]

Check your fuses. I'm not familiar with this generation truck, but the lamps' power from the door switches may come through a different fuse than the power for the appliance switches. Look over a wiring diagram. If that's the case, follow the wire that powers them. Likewise, as was said already, locate and check your grounds.

 

[tdfuller]

New update.

A week ago took Expedition back to the shop that did the headliner. They were thorough, and spent about two hours. They dropped the front overhead center map console, both 2nd row overhead captain's chairs lights, the rear cargo light, as well as opened the C-pillar cover right rear side to expose the two cannon plugs. These things were all checked. They also removed the trim to the sunroof to look down the head of the top of the headliner. The only thing not done on this return trip was to completely drop the new headliner, and the board it is attached.

But, there seemed to be no apparent need to drop the headliner completely, as the wires that run along the top of the headliner aren't touched, just the connectors to the interior demand lights and front seat visor lights and two canon plugs. No apparent problem was noted.

So, a week later... That is this past Monday.....

I took it to my regular mechanic to have a look while scheduled for regular oil/filter change... and...

He found Fuse #24 blown. Fuse #24 as shown in the Owner's Manual and on whtbronco's Power Distribution Box visual above.

It is "hot at all times" and controls the "interior demand lamps - front map/dome lamps, 2nd row dome/map lamp, glove compartment lmap, cargo lamp, roof rail lamps, battery saver relay coil, battery saver relay power."

Fuses don't usually blow unless something causes them to blow...

... When he replaced with a good fuse, more weird things started to happen. The front overhead center console on/off switches begin to work, however the driver side overhead map bulb remained ever so slightly illuminated even when switched off, and both 2nd row overhead lights then remained on all the time, even with the doors closed! Clearly, the problem was not resolved.

... At that time, his thought was to try to replace the Headlamp Power Switch Assembly - which I believe is P/N SW3935. The shops manager put one on order from a local Autozone due to arrive Tuesday.
That was Monday at the close of business of his shop... and that's when things got more weird.

The next day, Tuesday, I got a call from the shop's manager that the vehicle was ready for pickup. I got over to the shop and while the shop did bring in a Duralast headlight switch the front manager said that the switch was missing two pins and could not be used on my vehicle and that a proper switch SW3935 will need to be ordered. The upfront manager said I could talk to the mechanic doing the work and the manager provided me a printed schematic with a brand new (good) 15 amp fuse taped to the spot on the schmeatic where it goes.

The mechanic hand wrote on the schematic that this good fuse taped to the schematic was "pulled out." This fuse is not in the power distrribution box at this time. The manager directed me to chat directly with the mechanic.

When I talked with the mechanic, the tune of the mechanic changed from the previous day. The mechanic shifted his position to believe that a new headlight switch probably would not solve the problem. When I mentioned to him that the upfront manager was going to bring in another headlight switch - proper one - without the two missing pins, the mechanic said that was news to him.

So the good news is that the "problem" is back to where it was as originally described in this thread, with the 15 amp interior demand lamps/battery saver relay fuse pulled.
The bad news is the problem is still not solved, and the mechanic appeared to shift his stance from Monday, where he thought it was the headlight switch, to Tuesday thinking less so that it was and just ready to get the vehicle out of the bay and on its way.

My view is that the blown fuse #24 provides a clue. I guess it is possible a wiring short is causing it, or, the headlight switch is causing the short.

Thanks for any new advice,
Todd

 

[whtbronco]

It could be the headlight, interior dimmer, switch I suppose. It's pretty easy to swap it out. You could always try a junkyard for a replacement switch. I hear from family there are lots of junkyards around Charlotte still. The good news is many yards will let you pull the parts yourself meaning you can test the disassembly on theirs before trying yours. Anyway this might be an option save you some time and money.

HEADLAMP SWITCH
REMOVAL
All vehicles

1. Disconnect the battery ground cable.

Expedition

1. CAUTION: Cover the end of the tool with tape to prevent damage to the trim panel.

NOTE: Use a thin-bladed tool to remove the headlamp switch bezel assembly.

3. Remove the headlamp switch and bezel assembly.

• Disconnect the electrical connectors.

4. Remove the screws, release the tabs and remove the headlamp switch.
INSTALLATION
All vehicles

1. To install, reverse the removal procedure.

 

[tdfuller]

Thanks whtbronco. Does not seem hard or overly time consuming to swap the headlight switch. Sounds like worth trying.

 

[100branson]

Tdfuller did that fix your issue? I appear to be having same exact issue even fuse 24 being blown

 

[tdfuller]

The headlamp switch has not been tried yet. Did you change or otherwise mess with your headliner? I'd love to get this thing resolved. But since early December have not touched it nor anybody else. The mechanic I go to caught COVID, then others in his shop caught COVID; that, then the holidays, then we had a lightning bolt strike almost hit our home December 29. Fortunately, our home was not physically damaged and nobody was hurt, but we had lots of electronics and HVAC damage. Took us about a month to get everything resolved.....Maybe you and I can motivate each other and compare notes?!

 

[Aspen03]

Did they just visually inspect the connectors or did someone actually test the circuit at each location? Are you using conventional bulbs or led? Are these the same bulb housings or something that was pre installed in the replacement headliner?

We have a pair of 03's and have never experienced this issue though we've never replaced a headliner. I've had lights stay on due to faulty door jamb switches and the rear glass latch. If this wasn't an issue before the headliner swap I would bank on the switch not being the issue, it would have to be an awfully big coincidence if so as you wouldn't even interact with it in this scenario.

 

[tdfuller]

Yes, connectors were inspeced. Took it back to the headliner shop and then pulled it down part way. There are only a couple of bundled connectors. Not sure if anyone tested circuit at each location though. Conventional bulbs. I am hoping 100branson will respond further. He says he is having the same issue. If he did not touch his headliner there is another clue. Intuitively I agree that messing with the headliner is awfully suspect, but I've owned cars, boats, and airplanes and seen not one, but several instances of bizaare things (failures) happen at almost the exact time that were completely coincidental.

 

[100branson]

Tdfuller I'm not sure if the headliner was ever removed actually bought it from the Toyota dealership this way and never realized till we drove it at night from what I've seen it doesn't look like the headliner has been removed but the trim around the back and c pillars look like they were pulled before.
Carfax shows this SUV had a minor rear end accident.
I do have a junkyard headlight/gauge dimmer switch to try
My next thing is to try a thermal camera and see what wire starts to heat up when fuse 24 is in and work from there that's more a shot in the dark

 

[tdfuller]

okay 100branson!! Sounds like a plan. Please keep me (this thread) informed of what works and what does not. I will do the same. Thanks.

 

[100branson]

I work away from home so I haven't had much time to mess with it I tried a new fuse for fun to see what happens it blew instantly then I put a 20amp in for a few seconds didn't get warm or anything then stuck at 15 amp back in and everything works good for now did a walk around everything seems good so far ( I know this was a bad idea) mind you I bought it this way I was originally hoping problem might have been fix or etc this is a place to start