Oil analysis as a predictor for cam phaser/timing chain/cam/follower issues?

[5150 pops]

An interesting(to me anyway) observation following your post Pops is that the Oil pressure light was one of the first bits "tech" added to the Japanese motorcycle gauges. Honda routinely used 45-60PSI yet ask early 80's v4 users about top-end oiling. Since "insert" bearings are now commonplace, ANY loss of pressure and you are 100% correct. Damage is instant and typically catastrophic.

In the 4 stroke bike world, we see crank gallery common chambers to allow active cylinders to lower pumping losses and lots of other mods in search of that efficiency.

From reading everything, it would seem that an oil pressure gauge with warning, would be the ticket but I believe that all the top-end oiling is internal so I'm not sure where that gauge would be installed since between the pump and top end is where it needs to be.

jeff

The death of the v65 magna and sabre was ensured in no small part to that, and it's superior rubber band chassis, that felt as though there was a pivot section of the frame, directly behind the engine, but ahead of the rear wheel. Scariest ride ever, 1986 v65 magna dropping speed from 100+ at end of quarter mile, with limited runoff room. Panic braking on that thing from above 55mph+ was very unpleasant, nearly impossible to accomplish without eventually hitting whatever you were trying to avoid.

 

[5150 pops]

Correct, only trucks with Keyed ignition can be shut down on demand.

Reason #546 why push to start is a not so good trend.

I'll have to confirm this with the Mini Cooper and Honda Accord we have, both are manual transmissions. I could swear the Odyssey I had which had keyless ignition, would allow killing ignition via button, IF in neutral or park.

 

[JExpedition07]

I'll have to confirm this with the Mini Cooper and Honda Accord we have, both are manual transmissions. I could swear the Odyssey I had which had keyless ignition, would allow killing ignition via button, IF in neutral or park.

I’ve turned my truck off via key in neutral before, and also have turned it off in drive. The vehicle will shut down it just won’t allow you to remove the key from the ignition until you shift to park.

 

[TobyU]

I’ll just leave this here. Not trying to be a “God”, but the guys who work on these engines and Ford have a pretty good idea what’s going on. Not going to convert you clearly, just offering info on the subject which you seek to avoid. Again no one has concluded oil analysis can predict timing set issues. Unusual noises are normally first indicator.

Oil is what the VCT system operates on and is the blood of an engine. It’s important!

Biggest problem I have with this video is the fact that there's a need to be proactive on a vehicle with a hundred sixty-eight thousand miles and change the timing components and tensioners. And that vehicles have failures even before this many miles.
I guess I will blame it on the push for more fuel mileage but it makes me so mad when manufacturers and companies and everything else in the world keeps changing things when it's not broke. You know that expression...
I'm quite happy with my 4.6 gas mileage in my town car and I have never Hattie Town Car and rarely even heard of one that had any timing component issues are failures. These things always go 200 - 225,000 miles with hardly any repairs especially no internal engine repairs. Some people don't even change the oil on these and they go that long.
That's the whole reason I hate and won't own a car with a timing belt. And I also hated the nylon coated gears back in the seventies that always ended up being replaced.
There is zero reason a manufacture can't make timing chain and components that will outlast the life of any engine. But they don't want to make one that'll last 500,000 Miles when people only keep cars maximum of 250. That would be a waste of money for them now wouldn't it?
It seems they wouldn't over build something even if it cost them less because they still want the repairs to be done in the future to keep the money wheel turning.
I have read another comment or two in the past few months and I fear it's going to be true, that we're going to see a major reduction in trouble free long life automobile engines in the future. I don't know if it's the ones being made right now that will be having lots of problems in for 5 years or what time frame but it does seem like after a couple of decades of engines getting better and better and lasting longer and longer that it's going to start to go the other way.
There is zero reason for this to happen but they keep pushing for more and more fuel mileage, oils with less zinc and phosphorus and thinner weights Etc and of course always trying to save money in production cost so they can make more profit. It makes my view of the future of autos pretty gloomy.
The only positive for me is that I never have or buy newer vehicles. By the time I'm willing to pay what they're going for they are well over 10 years old so I will have time to figure out which ones to avoid or they will already have improved the designs and figured out ways to fix the problems and I can buy ones that have already had the bugs worked out.
Occasionally I envy people who can afford new cars and car payments because they have that warranty but I'm not so certain. That is all what it's cracked up to be.
The mindset is you have a nice newer vehicle under 3 years old you never have any concern when you go out and put the key in the ignition and turn it oh, WAIT, you don't do that anymore in most cars , and I HATE that too.... but you have no fear not even in the back of your mind that it's not going to start perfectly and drive perfectly and get you where you need to go and get back. I am way too off and on pins and needles just wondering when the next thing is going to give me a problem or what might happen. But it seems often people have problems even major ones under warranty and it can be a real nightmare and sometimes a vehicle is never the same long-term.
That's why I stay with the tried-and-true vehicles that I have found that are just really darn durable. I'm not much of an import person but they are a lot of great ones of those too but I have basically stuck with Lincoln Town Cars because from 1996 and up they routinely go 300 to 400 thousand miles on the original Engines & Transmissions.
I have owned and serviced many and I have a friend who has owned over 400 and he has never had a timing chain or timing component issue or failure.
When you start reading articles and stuff about the 4.6 since they quit making it you'll hear people give them lower ratings because of some of the little things most all them had issues with but that's nothing compared to these major repairs. Yes, a lot of people got hosed for 1200 to almost $2,000 to have their plastic intake manifold replaced but a lot of people also bought them for under $200 and replaced them themselves and an afternoon.
And with the newer ones you already got the good and take that will probably never fail. So a possible intake, and alternator or two which will be lifetime warranty after you buy the first one and takes 10 minutes to replace, a starter somewhere between 150 and 200 thousand miles, eventually and oil filter adapter gasket which cost all of $13, coils and plugs probably only once maybe twice at most in the complete ownership which I've been super cheap on eBay for 10 years now.
Give me a 4.6 any day. Never seen any spark plug threads damaged. My friend was over 400 Town Cars has only had one plug blow out and it must have just been loose and worked all the way out and then blew. There were plenty of threads and they were not damaged unlike what the 5.4s on 6.8s often do.

 

[JExpedition07]

Biggest problem I have with this video is the fact that there's a need to be proactive on a vehicle with a hundred sixty-eight thousand miles and change the timing components and tensioners. And that vehicles have failures even before this many miles.
I guess I will blame it on the push for more fuel mileage but it makes me so mad when manufacturers and companies and everything else in the world keeps changing things when it's not broke. You know that expression...
I'm quite happy with my 4.6 gas mileage in my town car and I have never Hattie Town Car and rarely even heard of one that had any timing component issues are failures. These things always go 200 - 225,000 miles with hardly any repairs especially no internal engine repairs. Some people don't even change the oil on these and they go that long.
That's the whole reason I hate and won't own a car with a timing belt. And I also hated the nylon coated gears back in the seventies that always ended up being replaced.
There is zero reason a manufacture can't make timing chain and components that will outlast the life of any engine. But they don't want to make one that'll last 500,000 Miles when people only keep cars maximum of 250. That would be a waste of money for them now wouldn't it?
It seems they wouldn't over build something even if it cost them less because they still want the repairs to be done in the future to keep the money wheel turning.
I have read another comment or two in the past few months and I fear it's going to be true, that we're going to see a major reduction in trouble free long life automobile engines in the future. I don't know if it's the ones being made right now that will be having lots of problems in for 5 years or what time frame but it does seem like after a couple of decades of engines getting better and better and lasting longer and longer that it's going to start to go the other way.
There is zero reason for this to happen but they keep pushing for more and more fuel mileage, oils with less zinc and phosphorus and thinner weights Etc and of course always trying to save money in production cost so they can make more profit. It makes my view of the future of autos pretty gloomy.
The only positive for me is that I never have or buy newer vehicles. By the time I'm willing to pay what they're going for they are well over 10 years old so I will have time to figure out which ones to avoid or they will already have improved the designs and figured out ways to fix the problems and I can buy ones that have already had the bugs worked out.
Occasionally I envy people who can afford new cars and car payments because they have that warranty but I'm not so certain. That is all what it's cracked up to be.
The mindset is you have a nice newer vehicle under 3 years old you never have any concern when you go out and put the key in the ignition and turn it oh, WAIT, you don't do that anymore in most cars , and I HATE that too.... but you have no fear not even in the back of your mind that it's not going to start perfectly and drive perfectly and get you where you need to go and get back. I am way too off and on pins and needles just wondering when the next thing is going to give me a problem or what might happen. But it seems often people have problems even major ones under warranty and it can be a real nightmare and sometimes a vehicle is never the same long-term.
That's why I stay with the tried-and-true vehicles that I have found that are just really darn durable. I'm not much of an import person but they are a lot of great ones of those too but I have basically stuck with Lincoln Town Cars because from 1996 and up they routinely go 300 to 400 thousand miles on the original Engines & Transmissions.
I have owned and serviced many and I have a friend who has owned over 400 and he has never had a timing chain or timing component issue or failure.
When you start reading articles and stuff about the 4.6 since they quit making it you'll hear people give them lower ratings because of some of the little things most all them had issues with but that's nothing compared to these major repairs. Yes, a lot of people got hosed for 1200 to almost $2,000 to have their plastic intake manifold replaced but a lot of people also bought them for under $200 and replaced them themselves and an afternoon.
And with the newer ones you already got the good and take that will probably never fail. So a possible intake, and alternator or two which will be lifetime warranty after you buy the first one and takes 10 minutes to replace, a starter somewhere between 150 and 200 thousand miles, eventually and oil filter adapter gasket which cost all of $13, coils and plugs probably only once maybe twice at most in the complete ownership which I've been super cheap on eBay for 10 years now.
Give me a 4.6 any day. Never seen any spark plug threads damaged. My friend was over 400 Town Cars has only had one plug blow out and it must have just been loose and worked all the way out and then blew. There were plenty of threads and they were not damaged unlike what the 5.4s on 6.8s often do.

I agree their are issues associated with the VCT systems. But there are also benefits besides fuel economy (increased and broader powerband).

 

[5150 pops]

I’ve turned my truck off via key in neutral before, and also have turned it off in drive. The vehicle will shut down it just won’t allow you to remove the key from the ignition until you shift to park.

Yes but my Odyssey was keyless ignition. No key, push button start. Fairly sure it would let you push button, after it was running, if it was in neutral. Not sure if it would let you do it, if it was on the move though.
EDIT...the Expedition transmission selector knob, might go to neutral while "on the fly" but it will not let you turn the ignition off. I'm fairly certain the Odyssey with auto trans and push button start would let you pop it in neutral and push ignition button, killing the engine, if you needed to in order to minimize engine damage.
That's a real problem if all push button ignition systems, with automatic transmissions are all programmed against turning the engine off while on the move, even if neutral is selected first.

 

[rjdelp7]

I did NOT ask for anecdotes. I simply asked what folks have done with regard the use of objective data and oil analysis in the prediction of subject failures. That's a far cry different than asking people to piss on my parade since I choose different bases for my maintenance schedule. Go back and read. I even specifically asked for those of you that wish to convert others not to try and do so.

I guess it comes down to the GODS of 'we know it all' with no basis. The GODS that demean, condescend, and pick on others who may choose to not necessarily agree with what they opine, regardless of the basis.

What a shame it came to this. I simply wanted to see if anyone had gone here. I did not wish to try and match wits with those that are so omniscient, regardless of their bases. The GODS win! I give up.

Just follow the owners manual. Use 5w20, like it says. Ford knows more about there engines that you do. Only a flaming idiot, would go 15,000mi and worry then about engine failures. Don't waste people's time with this stupidity.

 

[rjdelp7]

Git 'er dun!!!!
There's a thread, somewhere on the interwebs, (can't remember where, Google is ur friend) mentioning the degradation/deterioration of the Puralator version of the Motorcraft FL500?oil filter (The effin same motorcraft filter that is recommended in 3.5 Ecoboost 2nd gen- possibly 1st gen too, but I don't care to verify) as a known problem with a certain "lot."
Puralator is the same company that produces the rebranded "Motorcraft" oil filter.
AFAIK there are zero published reports of ANY motorcraft branded oil filters for the same use - 3.5 Ecoboost. It strikes me a little more than weird, that essentially the exact same filter with possibly different paint and insignia, NEVER had ONE failure?????

Particulate matter being sent through the galley's and other passages within the engine, could easily lead to a FALSE reading with the "advanced" 2nd generation variable oil pump on Gen II's and cause almost instantaneous irreversible engine damage as a result.

There in lies my situation, for better or worse, no oil analysis could foretell of impending doom, unless the filter was immediately changed AND entire engine meticulously cleaned, (not likely).

I submit this, NOT as a bearer of doom and gloom, but simply as information. I do not believe if this problem (IF EVER confirmed by FORD) is ever brought to light, is widespread. I do believe it is a very real possibility based on information gleaned from professionals who most certainly will NOT, go public and support the assertions I've submitted here, simply because you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Sure there will still be the TROLL(s) who don't comprehend that this is at all possible, and assert taking a vehicle to TEST AND TUNE session(s) at a closed course, as "Racing and Abuse", but as the saying goes...agree to ****** disagree!!!!


EDIT....Just realised this thread did not originally coincide with the 4th generation Expedition, as such, my comments should be taken, with even LESS than the proverbial grain of salt.

Motorcraft filters are manufactured by Champ(aka champion), to Ford spec. Plenty of better alternatives out there.

 

[Trainmaster]

These comments agree with my thoughts exactly. There comes a time when manufacturers become too embraced with new technology. Often it's unproven and sometime it sucks. That's why, if you buy cars for the long haul, you avoid early releases of new models.

I'm afraid that Toby hits on the truth with a coming decline in engine longevity. But we are seeing the breakdown of much quality manufacturing these days and fewer products are built to last.

Be governed accordingly, as they say. Buy good, tried and true technology. Avoid the fads and glitter, unless bragging to idiots is important to you.

 

[5150 pops]

These comments agree with my thoughts exactly. There comes a time when manufacturers become too embraced with new technology. Often it's unproven and sometime it sucks. That's why, if you buy cars for the long haul, you avoid early releases of new models.

I'm afraid that Toby hits on the truth with a coming decline in engine longevity. But we are seeing the breakdown of much quality manufacturing these days and fewer products are built to last.

Be governed accordingly, as they say. Buy good, tried and true technology. Avoid the fads and glitter, unless bragging to idiots is important to you.

I feel the same way, but I severely discounted the idea of the '18 being "all new", to me it never really looked much different than the '15-'17 models. As such, I figured having the second generation 3.5 Ecoboost in the '18 they would have engineered away the problems plaguing the 1st generation of this engine. Unfortunately I should have dug deeper on the F-150 forums, prior to buying and I would have found plenty of information on what I suspect to be the gremlin present in my '18. I'd have bought a V8 crewcab with longbed, of some manufacturer instead of rolling the dice.

Don't miss construe my disappointment with crying, I'm not. I'm just sharing what I've learned after the fact, hopefully to other's benefit to have additional information to make their decision.

All manufacturers have problems, one year to the next there are recalls, TSB's, etc.

Honda has recently had problems with a "no start" condition with the keyless ignition system in the prior to now generation (2013-?) Accord. Yet my wife's '14 we bought new, now with almost 50k miles, has never had this affliction. Aside from Ford, I've never experienced a catastrophic failure, sooooo early in ownership. Overall I can only remember my 1992 z-28 having the need for a new tranny around 85000 miles, but never anything else 5.7 liter V8 was a boss, long after.

I had a Focus with the twin clutch tranny, it never went to the dragstrip, only used as a commuter car when we lived in North Texas, it too shit the bed around 6,500 miles, (tranny) was a 2012, also "all new"... coincidence?

Probably so, but I can't help but find it at least a little odd, that I'm 2 for 2 with Ford's, both had less than 10,000 miles, and they were new purchases, within a decade of each other.