Oil analysis as a predictor for cam phaser/timing chain/cam/follower issues?

[jeff kushner]

We examined Blackstones report here with 3 sets of eyes and as expected, it really doesn't show any warning flags. The key items I was looking for are change in flashpoints, Viscosity after 15K although at only "19", the silicone(part of the additive package) is low and won't go much longer & the sodium and Boron are also part of that pkg.

I think, to put a hypothesis as to why this "works" I would guess is rooted in the full-sized oil filter used for this engine. It's capacity has to be the reason there doesn't appear to be massive particulate ie-Iron....but it's only a guess.

From the pics I've seen of those blown gaskets, they appeared to be the red-rubber high-temp o-rings that came out for "high heat situations" but in practice, they become hard & brittle. Are these made of the same stuff?

jeff

 

[inmanlanier]

Yes, Jeff - my worries were also as you bored into - the oil properties essential for doing the job. Of course, in the study of automotive oils, as many know the additive packages are what is key to lasting. From what I understand the base will last much much longer than the additive packages. I concluded as you that for this motor it is a good point to change since as you mention the additive elements are getting low.

To your question, I never had to worry about color (we specified materials, then relied on QA programs to ensure the specs were followed). Therefore I have not ever researched to know if the different materials have different innate/natural colors. My guess is all of them are dyed to a color that is specified by the purchaser/engineer at end use to minimize selection error in assembly for whatever application the gaskets are used.

The Expedition will be up on my lift within the hour for changing the oil.

 

[5150 pops]

Great thread with a lot of good info. One post I noticed talked about shifting into neutral while rolling down the freeway and turning the engine off after oil light comes on. By shifting to neutral at that speed and taking load off of the engine, the rpm's will go very high before you can shut engine down and cause even more damage. Looking forward to following this thread.

Are you trying to be funny?
I can't see how that could be, I thought it was understood before going to neutral, or mashing clutch pedal to firewall (lever to handlebar on motorcycles) you throttle DOWN/OFF?

Which would bring the engine rpm to idle almost immediately, then kill ignition. The worst part, would be loss of power steering and brakes, but the driver still has use of both, just requires hella more effort, the bigger the vehicle.

 

[5150 pops]

BTW 5150 Pops regarding your 18’, any details yet that you can share without consequence? Are you back in possession of the vehicle? I’m interested to find out more about the new style oil pump. Sounds like your issue is oil pump?

There may be some merit that planned obsolescence may be involved, or maybe it’s just keeping production costs down. The trend has been they design these things then sell updated service parts for the engines.

The last communication I had was the Friday b4 our 24 hour nearly foot of snow.
They were planning to have the engine out, and fully disassembled by the following Friday. That would have been the 14th.

I have zero desire to call.
I think it's reasonable they likely did not work, that Monday or Tuesday, for that matter, and if they did, certainly not with a full staff.

That much snow, down here is a nutstomper.
Yes we have adequate equipment and resources easily capable of 3" accumulation in a day, but VDOT gets exponentially challenged every inch thereafter. Most schools were closed from Mon-Thursday, yep they went back on Friday. So factor that into the employees that might not be able to work last week, because of lack of childcare.

I thought I might get an update today, but the phone hasn't rang, nor any email come through.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this forum, but there's a strong possibility I will never get a straight scoop, if they do indeed pony up and cover the problem. They surely would be inundated with owners of a myriad of platforms utilizing the new variable displacement pump, that previously were sent packing with a new head, or vct replacement, etc.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

Andy - good for you, let's keep in contact with each other. Can you share with me what's going on with your fuel? I hope you've reached out to Ford on that.

I'm not sure what is going on with the fuel right now. I checked with ford and they have not TSB or anything that fixes fuel in the oil. When I first bought the truck I was semi retired and worked from home teaching college classes online. The school closed in September. I had been there 5-1/2 years fortunately I had been offered a job so now I drive back and forth to work 13 miles each way with half of that at highway speeds. I asked Blackstone if they can produce a TSB that I can take to Ford, we'll have to wait and see what answer they have if any.

 

[jeff kushner]

Andy,

I assume so correct me if I'm wrong but you are using the same make & grade oil for each of your Blackstone reports? I also assume that you aren't lugging the engine but fuel blow-by dilution caused that Flashpoint & Viscosity to drop. The 240F that shows in the Feb/18 report is getting lower than you really want.



jeff

 

[inmanlanier]

Andy - in addition to Jeff's comment, if you're under warranty this analysis should stand on it's own merit for the local dealership to engage in dialogue with Ford Corporate for thoughts on what to do. It is not normal, they should be tickled pink their customer is funding his own analysis of oil that may same them some high $$ warranty charges later.

Inman

 

[TobyU]

Andy - in addition to Jeff's comment, if you're under warranty this analysis should stand on it's own merit for the local dealership to engage in dialogue with Ford Corporate for thoughts on what to do. It is not normal, they should be tickled pink their customer is funding his own analysis of oil that may same them some high $$ warranty charges later.

Inman

Unfortunately they won't be tickled at all. They'll be more aggravated that you're armed with actual proof of things being wrong. They really hope you'll just go away , die, live with it, or trade the vehicle in.

 

[1955moose]

Dealers and opposition lawyers, never like proof they can't dispel. It's like your going in with your own blood sample to the doctor. But in this case you don't have to pay the doctor, they pay you. You can bet they won't be their usual syrupy self.

Sent from my N9131 using Tapatalk

 

[Motorcity muscle]

Are you trying to be funny?
I can't see how that could be, I thought it was understood before going to neutral, or mashing clutch pedal to firewall (lever to handlebar on motorcycles) you throttle DOWN/OFF?

Your making assumptions that not every driver can/would make.

 

[Richard_S]

I've been around engines for 40 plus years as well as aircraft piston and jet engines. I'm a fan of the oil analysis, its whats used on jet engines to keep an eye on certain types of bearing materials, if they spike then there is an impending failure that needs to be looked into and based on what the material is, then they know what bearing to look at. On our engines, a spike in coolant can give a clue that the water pump is starting to fail or coolant from somewhere is getting into the oil long before the oil gets the milky look to it.

Anyway on my 2012 5.4l I've used ford motorcraft full synthetic oil and filters and changed it 5 to 7k miles and don't have any timing noise on startup so far. 224k as of today.

 

[Trainmaster]

I've used ford motorcraft full synthetic oil and filters and changed it 5 to 7k miles and don't have any timing noise on startup so far. 224k as of today.

That's extremely encouraging news!

 

[Idahokid]

I work in the heavy duty truck world.(Kenworth).Many of my customers use uoa for their maintenance programs.But you have to do more then one.You have to do several to set a pattern or trend if you will.You can’t do one and call it good.An oil analysts will reveal several things.If There’s dirt in your Oil you would be looking for an intake air filtration issue for example.It will tell you if you’re getting coolant in your oil even if you can’t tell.It can be very informative.I do it on my Harley.

 

[inmanlanier]

You are right on target Idahokid. I'll be sampling every 5K going forward at least for one more run. I just want to make sure my metal numbers are drain interval based, vs. wear based. Unfortunately I've concluded that the gasket failure may be the main initiator, and start-up clatter is likely the symptom.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

Andy - good for you, let's keep in contact with each other. Can you share with me what's going on with your fuel? I hope you've reached out to Ford on that.

Jeff - let's see if this works - first time attaching. The only number of note is iron, hence why I'll swap now and trend. I hope it's not a cam lobe

To others - way back in the early 80s I was running Amsoil and extended intervals. I got my analysis for free because my bud bought all his oil from one shop and that was a service for him. On one car I actually put in one of the bypass filters - and sure enough the next interval it actually made the oil a little cleaner. That was a long time ago when with the research my other (engineer) bud was doing I realized I no longer needed to worry about synthetics. Whenever I own a car, once out of warranty I've switched to synthetics and extended drains. The only issue I had was a bearing knock on a Lincoln I got from my folks - shortly after getting said Lincoln the oil plug fell out of the pan (my wife immediately shut down and called me (oil light, arghh!). I found the plug - it was a 'repair' plug - they had stripped the pan threads. I towed it home and replaced the pan. The car ran fine for another 3 years until the bearing knock. When I ran extended intervals I used to change the filters at 5K, then 7.5K, then my (engineer) bud's research convinced me I was wasting my time since the filters were fully capable of running to 15K, expecially with today's cylinder wall quality, ring technology, filter size, efficiency, etc. BTW - the plug failure we called in our industry 'maintenance induced failures' - you got that right - the more we had them turn wrenches, the more chance of failures induced due to wrench turners - hence our strive for the right balance between doing when needed or unnecessary work where you set yourself up for someone to cause damage.

I'll try and remember to post my 5K sample (perhaps under a different heading). That will likely be a year or so.

See attached per your request, Jeff.

@inmainlanier - here is my latest oil report at 21,000 miles. Ford says there is no recall or fix for the higher amount of fuel in the oil. It is lower again this time. Read the top of the report.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

Andy,

I assume so correct me if I'm wrong but you are using the same make & grade oil for each of your Blackstone reports? I also assume that you aren't lugging the engine but fuel blow-by dilution caused that Flashpoint & Viscosity to drop. The 240F that shows in the Feb/18 report is getting lower than you really want.



jeff

Yes I have been using full synthetic since the first oil change. It is the regular Ford full synthetic oil.

 

[inmanlanier]

My replacement oil (much to my Chagrin) to the sample posted above was Mobil Super Synthetic vs. the prior Mobil 1. I say chagrin because the difference between the oils is as clear as mud, I ended up with the oil as a horse swap with my son who didn't clearly read the label on the gallons!

In any case, this discussion is really no longer applicable to the predictive measure of the subject of this post - instead it's really about oils and drain intervals, so I posted my recent oil analysis at https://www.expeditionforum.com/threads/oil-and-filter-time.40906/page-2.

The short summary is that since the oil was different, I did a mid cycle sample. The wear materials were commensurately lower than the previous 15K sample. As such, I'll likely finish this oil also at 15K. If you want to see the analysis - go to the post just above this paragraph.

 

[ExpeditionAndy]

This is my latest oil report at 25986 Miles back on 10/24.

 

[inmanlanier]

For those of you who tracked the oil analysis of this post, I have another 15K interval on Mobil Super Syn oil. Go to https://www.expeditionforum.com/threads/oil-and-filter-time.40906/ for my report on the 2nd 15K synthetic interval.

 

[07navi]

Aye, Vey! Sometimes I wonder.

Anytime you folks wish to opine on topics with or without data on topics not related to what is respectfully asked, please do so somewhere else.

I'm simply trying to see if this topic has been addressed. I've seen two affirmative comments regarding how "An oil analysis won’t be able to tell you timing components are having issues". Can anyone provide the basis for these remarks? Here's what I mean by that.

Engine blocks are made of iron based alloys or aluminum based alloys; hence why iron is a main component in the oil analysis. I believe that camshafts are also still iron based due to it's superior wear resistance. I saw photos of my bud's 2010 that used the Ford oil changed at the Ford intervals, religiously performed. One of his rockers showed significant material loss as well as the corresponding cam lobe. Do you think that iron went and hid as blockage in the oil passages that fed it?? C'mon people, try and be a little reasonable here. OF COURSE the iron wear would have been higher.

On topic, please - any other input?

I agree with others, and that analysis thing is a bunch of hogwash designed to make money. All you can do is use good oil, change it on time, don't overheat the engine, don't hot rod it, etc. That's all you can do, there is no silver bullet. You can talk all day about woulda' shoulda' coulda' but it means nothing. You can get 10 oil reports that did nothing but drain your wallet. Yes this is on topic.