Startup Rattle

[JediKnight2]

This is a rattle that has developed. This is a new vehicle to me. I did have the mechanic that looked at the vehicle say that the passenger rear had a lifter tick. Not sure if this is tied to that information. It happens at startup in the morning and sometimes when the vehicle has sat for 3 or 4 hours. Funny thing is it didn't do it yesterday morning at all. It did this morning and I got a video on it for you to hear the rattle. Thoughts?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bN3p8iim_OiutlGYTHLf0Znmn1baJoTd/view

 

[JExpedition07]

What oil filter are you running? Switch over to a Motorcraft filter as soon as you can that often rectifies the startup rattle. Junky oil (FRAM!!) filters upset these engines on startup because their lack of or useless anti drainback valves let all that oil back down and your starting with little ready oil. This causes the timing chain tensioners to relax and on startup the chain rattles until pressure builds and they tension it properly. Couldn’t access the file on my phone. BTW these are Overhead Cam engines no hydrolic lifters.

 

[Hamfisted]

Kinda sounds like the AC compressor kicking on after startup. Does it do it if you have the AC off ?

 

[JediKnight2]

Motor Craft filter is installed and AC was off.

 

[Big Brian]

have a proper oil pressure test done on it

 

[JediKnight2]

Also, running 5w20 Pennzoil High Mileage

 

[johnboneske]

I personally use A Fram XG2 and Mobile 1 5W20 and have NEVER had that problem...When I bought both of my Expeditions they both made that sound and both times had Motorcraft filters on them. I know people bash Fram, but I want to know one person who actually had an issue with them... not hearsay, but from the person themselves. Just a FYI, Fram filers from their bottom end orange filer, to their Tough guard and Extra guard have anti flow back valves just like the Motorcrafts...

 

[JediKnight2]

Well...took it up to the mech a nic....It's a bad lifter that's causing a tick. They are recommending going ahead and doing the lifters along with a timing chain kit. $2300.00. My good deal just went south...LOL. I bought the truck knowing that a timing chain kit might be in the future. Just have to do it sooner than I thought.

 

[1955moose]

Jexpedition true these engines don't use hydraulic lifters, by the way that's how you spell hydraulic! Our engines use a hydraulic lash adjuster, that requires oil pressure, along with a smooth fit in their bore. A lot of the 3 valve motors have oiling problems, that cause seizures in some of the adjuster bores. That and owners that want to push dirty oil through these troublesome years of engines causes one after another top end failure. I'm with John on the filter issue. I think it's more sloppy maintenance of oil changes, and weak factory oil pumps, that keeps causing these failures. We see at least 3-5 problems every week or two here. J, just messing with you on the spelling thing. When I was younger, I used to participate in spelling bees! At 63 years old, still bugs me when brakes are spelled breaks!

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[JediKnight2]

Got through talking to the guys at the shop. They are going to install new camshafts, lifter set, timing chain kit and a high pressure oil pump. They also mentioned a PCM update for the high pressure oil pump? They said they have done a ton of these and have 3 in the shop now getting done. He said he could do some work on the lifters, but that I would be back and paying for the labor again. Based on what I've read it sounds about right. They are also flushing the engine before the repair to ensure all the gunk is out before they put it all back together. I asked him about selling it and looking for another one and he said if I was going with a 5.4 to just bite the bullet on this one because if I buy another one I'd most likely be in the same boat sooner or later anyway. He said he's seen them go as short as 45,000 miles. He said the vehicle was in other wise great shape and condition.

 

[1955moose]

Sounds like you hit upon the right shop. Unfortunately he's right about the 2nd and 3rd gen 5.4's. If you've read the forum, some members have great luck, others not so much. If your Suv is otherwise in good condition, it should be the smart money way to go.

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[JediKnight2]

Can someone elaborate on the oil pump and firmware/software update?

 

[Andy J]

Sounds similar to what my navigator was doing. I am certain that you have a timing chain tensioner thats going bad and taking a few seconds to pump up like what was mentioned earlier. Im not sure if its an option on the 3v engines but on the 2v and 4v engines some came with cast iron timing tensioners and others had the plastic ones. The iron ones were nice because they had a small ratcheting arm on them that would extend out to the back of the tensioning arms and lock into place keeping tension on the chains even when there was no oil pressure. This would stop the rattling on startup. The plastic ones have a spring inside of them thats supossed to do the same thing but they rarely work as well as the iron ones with ratchets. See if you can find a set of the iron ones for your engine.

 

[1955moose]

The Melling part #s are m340 of if your going witha higher pressure pump 10340 I agree get the metal guides, and best cam advancers you can. Now is the time to upgrade and do it once and right!

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[JExpedition07]

If you have a 3 valve you must change your oil often, truth is you need to with any modern engine as they all can have oiling problems. Modern engines with variable cam timing have very small oil passages that are prone to sludging. GMs have issues with AFM sludging and ruining motors it’s not a ford thing.

 

[rjdelp7]

There may be nothing wrong. These motors need correct 5w20 or 5w30. Running too heavy starves the the top end. The cam follwers(correct name), can fall off at high RPMs. The motor will have a code and miss. If the the follower is off, it can be put back on. Plenty of vids on youtube.

 

[johnboneske]

For what I have found, ALL 5.4 2 valves(I dont know anything about the 3 valve engines) built after 1999 have plastic tensioners in them.

 

[red-russian1]

There may be nothing wrong. These motors need correct 5w20 or 5w30. Running too heavy starves the the top end. The cam follwers(correct name), can fall off at high RPMs. The motor will have a code and miss. If the the follower is off, it can be put back on. Plenty of vids on youtube.

How heavy is too heavy? When we first bought our 2005 Expedition about a year-and-a-half ago with 104,000 miles on it, it ran fine until I switched all of the fluids over to Amsoil oil. Within a month, I happen to check the oil one day and it was 2 quarts low. I've heard some horror stories about running synthetic in a used engine so I switched back to Mobil 5000. The engine stopped using oil but within about another month, the engine developed the dreaded dieseling issue, which it has to this state yet. I changed out the VCT solenoids and switched over to 10W-30 but the engine still Knocks. Should I switch back to 5W-30 again?

 

[johnboneske]

Hard to believe that Amsoil cause the problem... Did you change viscosity when you switched to Amsoil? I used to ue it for years in everything I owned. My pockets arent as deep now and only use Mobile 1

 

[rjdelp7]

How heavy is too heavy? When we first bought our 2005 Expedition about a year-and-a-half ago with 104,000 miles on it, it ran fine until I switched all of the fluids over to Amsoil oil. Within a month, I happen to check the oil one day and it was 2 quarts low. I've heard some horror stories about running synthetic in a used engine so I switched back to Mobil 5000. The engine stopped using oil but within about another month, the engine developed the dreaded dieseling issue, which it has to this state yet. I changed out the VCT solenoids and switched over to 10W-30 but the engine still Knocks. Should I switch back to 5W-30 again?

If a cam follower fell off, you would have a blinking Service light. Running 2 qts low, may starve top end, if you rev it 4-5K. I own a Lincoln 4.6l 32V DOHC. It had a start up rattle, with Motorcraft full Synthetic 5W20 and FL820. I switched to Mobil 1 and a XG2 ultra syn filter and rattle went away. Amsoil is not API approved and does not have starburst seal on bottle. That is why, it is not sold in stores. Amsoil claims they do want to pay for API fees. Amsoil is very pricey and sold through "authorized" dealers(aka, people selling out there home). Some say its is all clever marketing. If it was a truly a great product, it would be on the shelf, next to every other brand.Amsoil OE is now API approved and sold in some stores. It will not void warranties.