Which programmer? - SCT v. Superchips v. Hypertech v. whatever!

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jimpascale

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Newbie here. Ok, I read all the previous threads. I STILL don't know which one to go with, if I should go with any (is it OK to hack & change the trucks settings!?)
Please don't say, "it depends upon what you want to do". Assume I want to do it all (well, not hardcore tuning - I'm just a guy who wants to monitor his truck's systems & get the best performance he can but I'm not addicted to speed or anything).
Thanks gents.
Jim
PS
BTW, I'm an Apple/Mac guy, if that makes a difference.
 

SWAGGA

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Newbie here. Ok, I read all the previous threads. I STILL don't know which one to go with, if I should go with any (is it OK to hack & change the trucks settings!?)
Please don't say, "it depends upon what you want to do". Assume I want to do it all (well, not hardcore tuning - I'm just a guy who wants to monitor his truck's systems & get the best performance he can but I'm not addicted to speed or anything).
Thanks gents.
Jim
PS
BTW, I'm an Apple/Mac guy, if that makes a difference.

Are you wanting to monitor live information (datalogging) with the tuner? If so, you cut yourself down considerably in options. (SCT livewire, edge etc--something with a real time display of obd ii parameters)

If you're just looking for a general tune, most of it is just adjusting a/f ratio, timing, transmission shift pressure, tps voltage (throttle sensitivity essentially) and a few other parameters. Any of the tuning products can generally all do this the same... they're all just changing the numbers (Think of it an excel spreadsheet)... some just change numbers slightly different than others.

I've had 3 tuned expeditions, 1 navigator, using various products: SCT, delta force (formerly sniper), & a couple others.
My best friend owns an EFI tuning business with international customers and specializes in ford vehicles. He's done all of my work, and we've tinkered with different tuners and compared tune files just to see the differences.

There's a couple of dyno graphs here that may help you if you have 2 most common mods (CAI & catback):
http://www.expeditionforum.com/f44/couple-dyno-charts-may-help-some-folks-18573/

I'm not sure what the advertising rules are here on the site so I'm not posting links, but if you PM me I can give you the guys info that has done all of my tuning across 7-8 various vehicles.
 
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qcksnake

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Yea prob going to say SCT. When you get down to it they have the files, the market, and the customers ears. Not to mention in the Ford arena most guys use this and easy to navigate and understand.
 

96mustangV6

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If you have a droid and just wanna monitor what your truck is doun.

Buy a OBDii bluetooth adapter and buy and Download Torque. I have it for my Navigator. Monitors everything and also reads and Clears CELs.
 
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jimpascale

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Thanks, gentlemen, very much, for sharing your comments.
Swagga, regarding the dyno charts, it's interesting to note that the bulk of the improvements were achieved through "hard" improvements ie cold intake & exhaust, and the balance through tuning. I ordered my K&N intake today. Also, I like the thought of monitoring live data so Livewire clearly peaks my interest (while draining my wallet!).
Again, thanks to all for taking the time to write!
 

SWAGGA

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Thanks, gentlemen, very much, for sharing your comments.
Swagga, regarding the dyno charts, it's interesting to note that the bulk of the improvements were achieved through "hard" improvements ie cold intake & exhaust, and the balance through tuning. I ordered my K&N intake today.
If it isn't too late to stop the K&N, I'd recommend checking out JLT... I have no affiliation with them other than being a customer so I have no vested interest in selling their products. Their huge ram air intake for n/a applications is bad ass! I think its like $160 too, may save you some money vs $200+ for k&n.

As far as the tuning, the "bulk" is due to leaning it out as stock they run rich. On n/a applications, the big 2 things done for power are leaning them out a little bit & bumping timing. When you add CAI/exhaust, you're making it leaner as you're getting more air than fuel. Tuning is cool stuff!


Also, I like the thought of monitoring live data so Livewire clearly peaks my interest (while draining my wallet!).
Again, thanks to all for taking the time to write!
Yes the livewire is cool! I am considering that as alternative to a couple of gauges on my build.
 
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jimpascale

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SWAGGA -I'd recommend checking out JLT...
***I checked out JLT - I want! Thanks! What do you mean by "n/a" applications?
 

SWAGGA

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SWAGGA -I'd recommend checking out JLT...
***I checked out JLT - I want! Thanks! What do you mean by "n/a" applications?

Naturally aspirated--no supercharger, turbo, nitrous. I had that intake on my first expedition, it kicks ass.
 
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jimpascale

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Got it. Thanks.

I have to say, I'm thoroughly confused re: K&N v. JLT.
I've been looking at the K&N 57-2541 ($291.85), which gets its air from the fender & has a heat shield. The JLT #RAI-FEF-9703 ($159.00) has this massive filter but it doesn't get its air from the fender & it doesn't have a heat shield.
Some tout JLT, others K&N.
I AM IMMOBILIZED & NOT SURE WHICH WAY TO GO! AARGH!!!!
I guess I'm pre-disposed to go with K&N because:
-bigger company/name recognition factor
-the heat shield
-it gets cold air from the fender
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks!
 

SWAGGA

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I guess I'm pre-disposed to go with K&N because:
-bigger company/name recognition factor
Which means they can charge you substantially more for equal or inferior products.

-the heat shield
-it gets cold air from the fender
The JLT sits atop the radiator/clutch fan plastic which acts a heat shield from the radiator. You can touch that plastic when the engine is hot. See the gap between your hood & grille? It's sucking plenty of outside("cool") air from there when you're moving (both are sucking air right out of the engine bay when still.) The K&N FIPK kits run over the near the fender like the stock intake; there isn't going to be enough temperature change over there vs the rest of the engine bay to make any difference in my opinion.

In all honesty, you're going to get near the same gains from both kits. K&N says 9rwhp, JLT has tested multiple vehicles and posted dyno charts of 8-12rwhp / 10-14 rwtq.

I prefer the JLT at $150 vs K&N at $250, but that's personal preference. If I had to choose between the two at the same price, I'd still go JLT... but again, that's personal preference. My thoughts is that the filter is bigger, thus less pull is needed to get the required amount of air, and the air has less the travel.
 
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toms89

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@ SWAGGA

I agree with timing having a noticeable impact on tuning as the factory is tuned on the safe side. Yes the factory generally run rich if anything because it is safer for the motor and they do have to warranty them after all. But I do my own tuning now via sct pro-racers software and have to question the factory tune running too rich. I would agree there may be a little power to be gained by changing the air/fuel ratio but most of the time the vehicle is closed loop with the factory tune unless you are at high rpms or load. Closed loop runs off the O2 sensors and it runs at stoich for the fuel being used. Straight gasoline would be 14.64 to 1, about 14.3 to 1 for E10. At w.o.t. it is programmed to run as rich as 12.5 to 1 at the extreme which is considered ideal for N.A. by many and I would not consider this too rich.

Now there are a few possibilities. Ford could have the upper end of the mass air flow transfer function off which would throw off the commanded air fuel at w.o.t. The other is you are saying that they just make more power running leaner than 12.5 to 1 at w.o.t. If so what is your target air/fuel ratio w.o.t. for a stock N.A. expy... I realize every vehicle is different. I run about 11.7 to 1 with the blower.

Also an intake may make it run leaner initially but will quickly be adjusted for through the adaptive learning.
 

SWAGGA

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I'm unsure of the numbers as my tuner is the genius & I'm the dummy there, but I do know on mostly stock n/a vehicles, nearly all are leaned out a little bit for better power/mpg. Running leaner, in addition to the power gains, is how all tuning platforms advertise increased fuel mileage... such as SCT, their slogan: "More Power, Less Fuel."

How it's achieved, well that does vary, as you mentioned the MAF transfer function can be involved.
 

toms89

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I'm unsure of the numbers as my tuner is the genius & I'm the dummy there, but I do know on mostly stock n/a vehicles, nearly all are leaned out a little bit for better power/mpg. Running leaner, in addition to the power gains, is how all tuning platforms advertise increased fuel mileage... such as SCT, their slogan: "More Power, Less Fuel."

How it's achieved, well that does vary, as you mentioned the MAF transfer function can be involved.

More power, less fuel are not specifically related. They come at very different modes of operation. I believe most of the power to be had comes from ignition timing which will increase both efficiency and power. Based on my limited experience with the stock tune the commanded fuel seems optimized thus the reason I am questioning it.

Sent you a pm so I don't bore everyone else and getting off topic.
 

toms89

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On topic...

I have an SCT custom tuner and happy with it. It has locked up on my a few times but after I researched it this does not appear to be the norm. They did fix it each time no cost. I would rate it much higher if I never had an issue.

I also opted for the sct ford pro-racers tuning software and very happy with it. Sct's datalogging software is also a great tool and very capable.
The tuning software is a waste for anyone other than hardcore types or those with a highly modded vehicles that must always tinker.
 
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jimpascale

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I'm gonna go w/ the JLT. It's a coin toss but that huge filter looks totally awesome. :)
As far as a programmer, I'm still not sure. I'm a newbie & maybe I'll just wait around a bit. After all, I've only had my truck a week.... :)
But, if see a price I can't refuse on the SCT livewire 5015, it's done. :)
 

SWAGGA

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I'm gonna go w/ the JLT. It's a coin toss but that huge filter looks totally awesome. :)
As far as a programmer, I'm still not sure. I'm a newbie & maybe I'll just wait around a bit. After all, I've only had my truck a week.... :)
But, if see a price I can't refuse on the SCT livewire 5015, it's done. :)
I think you'll like it, I did mine. I just ordered the lightning JLT for the project I'm working on. I had both the JLT & a Spectre on 5.4's, which is essentially the same exact thing as the k&n, and liked the JLT better... but again, I wouldn't expect the #'s to vary much across any of these products. But the JLT looks bad ass, sounds bad ass, and is a $100 cheaper--can't go wrong there!

Hope you enjoy it. I'm up in the air whether go to with a livewire or gauges myself.
 
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jimpascale

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Hey Swagga, thanks. I never heard of JLT until you brought them to my attention. Thanks, man. You also saved me some coin!
 

rtbrjason

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Hey Swagga, thanks. I never heard of JLT until you brought them to my attention. Thanks, man. You also saved me some coin!

Me neither. I was not going to do an intake on this vehicle but I may now.


As far as the intake leaning out, in closed loop, any leaning out will be countered by the long and short term fuel trims to keep it running at or around 14.64. On other vehicles, the computer will use the last range of fuel trims to account for everything above that maf range (open loop). So if you start with an intake and the fuel trims make up for it by adding say 10% fuel to maintain 14.64 after a few hundred miles of driving, then you go into open loop or wot with 10% additional fuel over what the tune calls for. This will end up accounting for any additional air the intake provides. So on a car that has settled LTFTs, the additional air from the intake won't cause a lean condition assuming no tuning is being done.

That is, in the case that the open loop maf range on this ecu gets its corrections from the final closed loop maf range (40-60 or so g/s of air). If this ECU were to just revert to the actual maf scale without applying any corrections then it would cause the vehicle to lean out if stock maf scaling is used with an intake. I can't see how a company that has to warranty these engines would allow this to happen with the stock tune though.

In either case you will get far better results by tuning the vehicle and if you're going to tune it, add the intake before you do and account for it in the tuning. I don't have any experience with 5.4l tuning, but I would be shooting for somewhere between 12.5 and 13. I would go as lean as possible and then set timing to accommodate the leaner mixture, rather than set a safer mixture as a crutch for more timing. That's not to say that adding timing is bad but I would dial fuel in first and then set timing to the knock threshold and then back it off between 1 and 2 degrees.

One of my tuning goals for my cars is always the smoothest possible idle/drivability. I've had good luck with changing the closed loop fuel targets to be closer to 14.2 than 14.64 and smoothing the fuel table around the transition from closed to open loop and matching it to the open loop table at that point.

I'm really anxious to get into my expeditions tuning and wish there were better open source options to do it. I'll eventually probably shell out for the SCT and then the SCT software. This is really hard for me to justify on a 99 with very little value.

Specifically to the topic though, I don't think I would go with anything that didn't offer some ability to tune and data log, be it with additional software or direct to the device and transferable to a computer. Canned tunes are too general in most cases and the results very greatly from vehicle to vehicle. Based on my research here, if you're going to tune it yourself start with the SCT, if you want it tuned correctly, buy the SCT with a custom tune from one of the vendors here. I believe 5 Star is a popular choice as well as a few others.
 
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