Engine runs rough when cold. At dealer here is what they found.......

[Steve Owens]

2013 expedition, 82,000 miles. Check engine light on, got the old "number 8 cylinder" code. Engine runs rough when cold,runs great when it warms up, has slight oil smell on occasion while driving, added dye to oil, no engine oil leak, I replaced all plugs, 3 coils, and all the injectors. Did not cure the problem. #8 plug looks like its not firing when cold, has black fluff on plug no signs of oil on plug, not wet with oil.

Decided to take it to the dealer. Dealer found low oil pressure on their computer check. Suggested looking at the cam caps on the left side for scaring to try and confirm low oil pressure. Oil pressure gauge always normal, dip stick always on full, marked coolant reservoir, always on the lines for hot and cold. I use Amsoil/ Mobile 1 5W20 synthetic oil and either K&N or Motorcraft filter, every 7500 miles.

Asked them to run compression check on #8.

Why would low oil pressure cause a miss when cold?

I'm questioning their low oil pressure causing the engine miss when cold. Anyone had this engine miss issue and had it repaired at Ford?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[JExpedition07]

I don’t think a stored low pressure warning has to do with a P0308 misfire code, you’d have timing related codes and noises one would think. They cannot check oil pressure on this engine via computer it has to be done with a manual gauge put on with an adapter so that diagnosis is fishy. Dash gauge just goes to middle at 8 psi and doesn’t show actual pressure.

Sometimes it’s tough to get a good diagnosis. When mine was misfiring and noisy the mechanic said I needed a new engine. I had to figure it out myself and found 4 loose spark plugs. Replaced those and noises and misfires were gone.

 

[Steve Owens]

Thanks for the reply. They told me the same thing, need a new engine, that's BS !! No noises on a cold start, good oil pressure on start up and on a hot day. Engine misses on cold start, runs great after warm up. Replaced all plugs, injectors, 3 coils. Continue to get the PO308, #8 plug is wet (black fluff) when removed. I plan to stop by the dealer and check with service manager, not sure why they even did a oil pressure check, never has any issue with oil pressure.

I asked them to make sure it's plugged into their computer when they start cold and check the coil wiring on #8. I assume the computer will show just about anything going on?

 

[JExpedition07]

Thanks for the reply. They told me the same thing, need a new engine, that's BS !! No noises on a cold start, good oil pressure on start up and on a hot day. Engine misses on cold start, runs great after warm up. Replaced all plugs, injectors, 3 coils. Continue to get the PO308, #8 plug is wet (black fluff) when removed. I plan to stop by the dealer and check with service manager, not sure why they even did a oil pressure check, never has any issue with oil pressure.

I asked them to make sure it's plugged into their computer when they start cold and check the coil wiring on #8. I assume the computer will show just about anything going on?

Black puffy carbon deposits on the plug are a sign of overly rich fuel mixture. Too much fuel or too little spark. No coolant leak from the T-Connector above? That can also soak plugs.

 

[Steve Owens]

They are pulling the valve cover tomorrow.

 

[JExpedition07]

Well I guess we wait, could always be a follower or valve spring problem under there. Could also be computer related. But them replacing the timing set and cams or a new engine isn’t going to fix a cold misfire that disappears when warm on your current engine lol....I’m not convinced they are in the right track but maybe they are who knows

Jeff presented a great point about the vac line as well below \/

 

[jeff kushner]

Maybe the vac hose, the short one on the pass side near the firewall above the valve cover. It's a 90 deg bend and on both of my 5.4's, it wore through causing a rough running condition at idle Once you raised the speed above the delta of what it "leaks", it smoothed out.

Start it and while it's running rough, slide your fingers completely around each of the vac lines from beginning to end...you want to listen for a sound change when you slide over the hole. Both times for me, it was real evident when I found it.



You are running really nice oil....if you are, you are also keeping it clean...chances are, your oil wear is extremely limited and they were not entirely honest with you. People who don't know engines don't use high-end oil.....I have learned this to be true. You know if you really had an oil issue, it would tell you rather noisily. Smell your oil, it should smell like gas, not cause of an issue, it just does. Not burnt sulfur is the important ....gas is good smell, sulfur smell indicates a problem were the oil has burned at some point.

JE seems to know the 5.4's as well as anyone mechanically......his advise is usually sound...

jeff

 

[762mm]

Makuloco on YT talks about the roller-follower damage that can result from a defective oil pump (insufficient pressure) on those 5.4L 3-valves. I believe a misfire is also possible when this happens.

It's got me freaked out into doing a HV oil pump upgrade + timing job this spring, probably all 12 roller-followers on passenger side too. Apparently when you hear the noise, it's usually too late...

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

Black puffy carbon deposits on the plug are a sign of overly rich fuel mixture. Too much fuel or too little spark. No coolant leak from the T-Connector above? That can also soak plugs.

It is also possible the fuel injector pintle is partially clogged, causing it to not close fully.

 

[Steve Owens]

I don't agree with them either, we'll see how it goes, not sure why they aren't trying to figure out the #8 misfire, only happens when cold, cant imagine cam wear the way I maintain all my engines. I replaced the vac hoses when I cleaned the TB and reset the ECM per Makuloco on YT. Engine runs awesome after it warms up.

But you guys have some good ideas, hate to tell the Ford Tech how to do his thing, don't want to piss them off, just would like a realistic answer on what they have done and why and what they plan to do. With the new computers at the Ford dealer they should be able to pinpoint the issue? I think they have an problem when someone knows something actually knows about engines?

Just still wondering how low oil pressure could cause a miss in#8 when cold. Guess I should have purchased a high end Snap on engine computer and continued to do my own repairs, probably would have been cheaper and I know the job would have been done properly !!

Also, Makuloco had a video on what to look for on the Ford dealer compute for this cold engine miss issue, has to be connected to the vehicle when you start the engine and watch for the changes in the cylinder in question just after start up, they started it up let it warm up moved it to the shop then hooked up the computer, ..........anyone have the Makuloco video number, I cant find it, would like to review before I go see the service manager at the dealer.

 

[JExpedition07]

Makuloco on YT talks about the roller-follower damage that can result from a defective oil pump (insufficient pressure) on those 5.4L 3-valves. I believe a misfire is also possible when this happens.

It's got me freaked out into doing a HV oil pump upgrade + timing job this spring, probably all 12 roller-followers on passenger side too. Apparently when you hear the noise, it's usually too late...

Not true, when you hear the top end tick noise you can just replace the roller followers.

 

[762mm]

Not true, when you hear the noise you can just replace the roller followers.

Good to know, thanks!

 

[JExpedition07]

Good to know, thanks!

It’s a pretty common issue for cylinder #3 follower to start to seize on 4.6 and 5.4 engines around 180k. Loud thump or tick from the top end is the symptom and it needs to be taken care of fast. Only a $4 part but I’d do the whole side myself if I was going through the trouble.

TSB 06-9-11
05/15/06
LOUD TICKING NOISE - 3-VALVE ENGINES - STUCK
LASH ADJUSTER
FORD:
2006 Mustang, Expedition, Explorer, F-150, F-250, F-350
LINCOLN:
2006 Mark LT, Navigator
MERCURY:
2006 Mountaineer
ISSUE
Some vehicles equipped with 4.6L, 5.4L, and 6.8L 3-valve engines built between 1/11/2006 and 2/14/2006 may exhibit a loud ticking noise in the valve train area. This may be caused by a stuck/collapsed lash adjuster.
ACTION
Verify engine build date, isolate, and replace any stuck/collapsed lash adjuster by following the Service Procedure.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Check date code on the engine, located on the engine timing cover.
a. Date code between 1/11/2006 and 2/14/2006, proceed to Step 2.
b. Date code NOT between 1/11/2006 and 2/14/2006, this TSB does not apply, perform normal diagnostics.
2. Isolate the source of the noise to the cam cover on either Bank 1 or Bank 2. If the noise is not isolated to either cam cover, this TSB does not apply. Follow normal Workshop Manual (WSM) procedures for additional diagnostics.
3. Remove the appropriate cam cover.
4. Check for stuck/collapsed lash adjuster(s) by placing the cam lobe on the base circle and inspecting for loose cam followers as a result of the lash adjuster plunger being bottomed out.
NOTE A COLLAPSED LASH ADJUSTER WILL RESULT IN EXCESSIVE CLEARANCE BETWEEN THE LASH ADJUSTER AND THE CAM FOLLOWER.
NOTE WHEN CHECKING "3V" LASH ADJUSTERS - A "SPONGY" LASH ADJUSTER IS NORMAL WHEN OIL PRESSURE IS "NOT" APPLIED.
5. Replace only the affected lash adjuster(s) on the affected bank(s) following the procedures outlined in the appropriate WSM, Section 303.


Parts Block
WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME

060911A 2006 Expedition/Navigator 4.6 Hrs.
5.4L 3V: Isolate And
Replace Lash Adjuster(s)
Right Side Of Engine (Do
Not Use With 6051A,
6306A, 9424A, 6584A,
6256A, 6250A, 6500A)

 

[Steve Owens]

Dealer found the problem. Looks like I waited too long to address the engine miss and the ticking on start up. Apparently there was a TSB several years ago on this issue. Number 8 rocker broke damaged the cam, small metal parts all throughout the engine, pan had lots of metal. Apparently a piece the plastic cam timing slack adjuster broke off and plugged a couple of oil passages.................need I say more. New re-manufacturered Ford engine ordered. Supposed to have several of the problem issues resolved on the new engine. Wont be trading for awhile.

Thanks for everyone's time and suggestions !!

Steve

 

[bobmbx]

Dealer found the problem. Looks like I waited too long to address the engine miss and the ticking on start up. Apparently there was a TSB several years ago on this issue. Number 8 rocker broke damaged the cam, small metal parts all throughout the engine, pan had lots of metal. Apparently a piece the plastic cam timing slack adjuster broke off and plugged a couple of oil passages.................need I say more. New re-manufacturered Ford engine ordered. Supposed to have several of the problem issues resolved on the new engine. Wont be trading for awhile.

Thanks for everyone's time and suggestions !!

Steve

Forced engine purchases turn out to be blessings in disguise.

 

[JExpedition07]

Dealer found the problem. Looks like I waited too long to address the engine miss and the ticking on start up. Apparently there was a TSB several years ago on this issue. Number 8 rocker broke damaged the cam, small metal parts all throughout the engine, pan had lots of metal. Apparently a piece the plastic cam timing slack adjuster broke off and plugged a couple of oil passages.................need I say more. New re-manufacturered Ford engine ordered. Supposed to have several of the problem issues resolved on the new engine. Wont be trading for awhile.

Thanks for everyone's time and suggestions !!

Steve

Would be the last Ford I ever own to happen at 80,000. Trade it in on a Chevy Suburban without Ford overhead cam junk and don’t look back. I still think they strong armed you into an engine replacement, FordTechMakuloco fixes engines in that condition all the time with a new cam, engine flush, and new roller followers. Your 2013 has all oem improvements made to the engine. The reman has no significant changes from yours as all those changes were implemented on 2011 and forward oem engines.

 

[JExpedition07]

There’s also this thing called an oil filter that picks up those metal particles that fell back down into the pan from the cam before it’s recirculated.....I swear lol. Ok I’m going to stop before I tick people off




I just know the dealer rate is about $8,500-$10,000 for a new engine in these trucks so I hate to see this happen if it doesn’t have to...but I see why. No liability on their part if they fix the old engine and it doesn’t work out well. Also the company Ford buys their remans from (Ford doesn’t do it) sells the new engines for a little north of $3,000. That’s the route I’d take myself but I’m a young guy who cannot drop $10,000 on a new engine.

 

[Hamfisted]

Man, what a horror story for a 7 year old Expy. Truly a Rube Goldberg engine design. After this wallet vacuuming job I would definitely run at least a 10w-30 synthetic oil in it. Since none of the Ford updates included a high volume oil pump upgrade.

 

[TobyU]

2013 expedition, 82,000 miles. Check engine light on, got the old "number 8 cylinder" code. Engine runs rough when cold,runs great when it warms up, has slight oil smell on occasion while driving, added dye to oil, no engine oil leak, I replaced all plugs, 3 coils, and all the injectors. Did not cure the problem. #8 plug looks like its not firing when cold, has black fluff on plug no signs of oil on plug, not wet with oil.

Decided to take it to the dealer. Dealer found low oil pressure on their computer check. Suggested looking at the cam caps on the left side for scaring to try and confirm low oil pressure. Oil pressure gauge always normal, dip stick always on full, marked coolant reservoir, always on the lines for hot and cold. I use Amsoil/ Mobile 1 5W20 synthetic oil and either K&N or Motorcraft filter, every 7500 miles.

Asked them to run compression check on #8.

Why would low oil pressure cause a miss when cold?

I'm questioning their low oil pressure causing the engine miss when cold. Anyone had this engine miss issue and had it repaired at Ford?

Thanks,

Steve

They are barking up the wrong tree and it will be an expensive recommended repairs one!

Most dealers don;t even know how to run a comp test today (at least they rarely do) they let the comp "cyl balance test" tell then what they think they need to know.

 

[TobyU]

Man, what a horror story for a 7 year old Expy. Truly a Rube Goldberg engine design. After this wallet vacuuming job I would definitely run at least a 10w-30 synthetic oil in it. Since none of the Ford updates included a high volume oil pump upgrade.

Yes put 10w30 in it and the reason low il pressure COULD (but not likely) cause a miss is the cam lash adjusters ( I'm gonna call them lifters even though they don't lift LOL) could be bleeding down and with no oil pressure to pump them up, you get no valve movement or very little (but you also get noise and clicking clacking rattling usually)

Thing is, this should only be at start up and go away in moments not minutes.

You should have #8 coil out with a plug in it at start up and see it spark or no spark or see how hot the spark looks or if it misses every so many compressions.

I doubt a dealer tech would even do this.
I doubt they would even run one for 20-30 secs with one plug out puff puff puff.

New engine MY ASS.

Just like trans shops "need rebuild" often because they don't KNOW exactly what is the problem but they know a rebuild will fix it.
LAME LAME LAME