4th Gen brakes

[kep5niner]

The 3.5 eco boost available in the Navigator / Expedition comes with varying power outputs, topping out in the Navigator at 450 hp, 510 tq. I’ve been modding trucks for 30+ years, and the premise always adhered to is make sure you increase the stopping power if you’re going to upgrade the HP.

A cursory look at PNs for the brakes on the entry-level Expedition all the way up to the Navigator Black Label shows the same PNs for the brakes. Did Ford think that the same brakes would effectively stop 450 hp that stops 300 hp?

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

The 3.5 eco boost available in the Navigator / Expedition comes with varying power outputs, topping out in the Navigator at 450 hp, 510 tq. I’ve been modding trucks for 30+ years, and the premise always adhered to is make sure you increase the stopping power if you’re going to upgrade the HP.

A cursory look at PNs for the brakes on the entry-level Expedition all the way up to the Navigator Black Label shows the same PNs for the brakes. Did Ford think that the same brakes would effectively stop 450 hp that stops 300 hp?

I always believed that motor vehicle manufacturers based their braking hardware and systems, and stopping ability on the weight (including any towing weight) and potential top speed of the vehicle - not the horsepower.

The ability to accelerate faster does not increase the need for bigger brake systems. The braking system does not need to stop horsepower - it needs to stop the weight of the vehicle.

 

[kep5niner]

I can agree with that to an extent. However, look at the brakes on a typical F150 and look at the brakes on a GT500. One of them has 6-piston Brembos, and it’s not the heavier of the two.

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

I can agree with that to an extent. However, look at the brakes on a typical F150 and look at the brakes on a GT500. One of them has 6-piston Brembos, and it’s not the heavier of the two.

I agree with you to an extent.

I believe the larger brake packages on specialized cars are used as a marketing tool and for track-use. They are used to withstand repeatedly high-speed stops (or deceleration), and dissipate heat.

I began driving in the 1960’s and my first car was a 1965 Chevrolet Malibu 2-door. Drum brakes all around, and they faded and did not stop well.

Braking systems have come a long way, and now even the entry-level vehicles handle and brake very well.

Now - I’m still trying to figure out if people who have red brake calipers can stop quicker............

 

[bb37]

However, look at the brakes on a typical F150 and look at the brakes on a GT500. One of them has 6-piston Brembos, and it’s not the heavier of the two.

The GT500 also has sporting pretensions so Brembos are as much of an appearance upgrade as a performance upgrade.

My Durango was an R/T (5.7 liter HEMI, 360 HP) with what Dodge called the "Tow-N-Go" package. The package consisted most of the performance stuff from a Durango SRT (6.4 liter HEMI, 475 HP) except the big engine. That package included the red-painted 6-piston Brembo front brake calipers and red-painted 4-piston Brembo rear calipers. The brakes were definitely overkill on my R/T, but they looked cool. Note that Dodge put the same Brembo calipers on the Durango Hellcat (supercharged 6.2 liter HEMI, 710 HP).

Now, I have an Expedition Limited SPP. I have 440 HP and red-painted stock Expedition/F-150 brake calipers. I'd love to have Brembos. If Ford is going to market a 3-ton vehicle with lots of horsepower, they should offer upgraded brakes. But, it is what it is.

 

[BigOleFordFan]

I’m still trying to figure out if people who have red brake calipers can stop quicker

But of course they can, because they can also accelerate quicker too.....

I once held a can of red spray paint next to the brakes on my Caddy CTS, and I could immediately feel that it wanted to go more faster, hahahaha

j/k

 

[kep5niner]

Ha - maybe we’re both right. My wife did like the red calipers, so I took care of that on her car. It’s gotta be good for 5 HP right?



The genesis for my original question was after recently taking possession of my ‘19 Navigator, a front brake job was due in short order because the rotors were warped. Time constraints dictated I just picked up the best rotors I could source locally to knock out the job. I usually conduct copious research when looking for the best brakes for the application, and always upgrading if feasible. After the fact, when conducting a cursory search for brakes, I noticed that all the PNs (primarily Motorcraft) were the same for all lines of the Expedition / Navigator.

As bb37 mentioned, seems like with added performance, upgraded brakes would be warranted. Doesn’t seem to be the case with these trucks. I do drive it like the 6,000# truck this it is, but wasn’t sure if more spirited driving with the OEM spec brakes would end up the same warped result.

Thanks for all the feedback fellas. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something.

 

[rugedraw]

Ha - maybe we’re both right. My wife did like the red calipers, so I took care of that on her car. It’s gotta be good for 5 HP right?
View attachment 84854


The genesis for my original question was after recently taking possession of my ‘19 Navigator, a front brake job was due in short order because the rotors were warped. Time constraints dictated I just picked up the best rotors I could source locally to knock out the job. I usually conduct copious research when looking for the best brakes for the application, and always upgrading if feasible. After the fact, when conducting a cursory search for brakes, I noticed that all the PNs (primarily Motorcraft) were the same for all lines of the Expedition / Navigator.

As bb37 mentioned, seems like with added performance, upgraded brakes would be warranted. Doesn’t seem to be the case with these trucks. I do drive it like the 6,000# truck this it is, but wasn’t sure if more spirited driving with the OEM spec brakes would end up the same warped result.

Thanks for all the feedback fellas. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something.

Off topic, but I have to ask because I've worked at a Jaguar dealer for almost a decade and I don't recognize this wheel. What kind of Jag is this?

On topic: I'm in the process of upgrading my front brakes to the Baer 6S system that comes on the Shelby F150's. While doing my research, it seems the F150 and these trucks share the same brakes, too. I picked up a set of the calipers (which is the most expensive component of the 6S $4k brake kit) for $750 on offer up, and the seller had two sets and still has the other one. He's asking $1k, but he let me get a set for $750, so I assume that is the least he will let them go for.

https://offerup.com/item/detail/d05c13ae-2824-37aa-86fb-21bbe26c315e?q=f150+calipers

I can't say for sure they will also fit these trucks, but for the price, maybe someone here is interested in looking into it. Between the 15" Baer rotors, mounting hardware and brake pads, I had to spend another $1k in parts to get everything for the swap, but $1,700 for a $4k brake kit is still a hell of a deal.

 

[kep5niner]

Well done on the deal for the brake upgrade! Tempting…

Those pics were from my wife’s XJ. It’s got the supercharged 3.0 and is quite the performer. Everything under the hood reads FoMoCo

 

[rugedraw]

Well done on the deal for the brake upgrade! Tempting…

Those pics were from my wife’s XJ. It’s got the supercharged 3.0 and is quite the performer. Everything under the hood reads FoMoCo

Agreed! I had a 2019 F-Pace S with that engine. I had it tuned and pulley'd by VAP. Bumps up the power to 475hp. That engine was stout! I hate the new inline 6 crap engine they are using now.

Unfortunately, the days of FoMoCo in the JLR product is long gone now.

 

[sjwhiteley]

I had warped front rotors after around 50k miles. I do have a heavy foot which applies both to the gas and the brake, however. Added powerstop discs and pads - had them on previous vehicles and they did OK.

 

[kep5niner]

I appreciate the feedback. I’ve had Power Stop as well and several trucks over the years and they did very well!

 

[HILLY]

Off topic, but I have to ask because I've worked at a Jaguar dealer for almost a decade and I don't recognize this wheel. What kind of Jag is this?

On topic: I'm in the process of upgrading my front brakes to the Baer 6S system that comes on the Shelby F150's. While doing my research, it seems the F150 and these trucks share the same brakes, too. I picked up a set of the calipers (which is the most expensive component of the 6S $4k brake kit) for $750 on offer up, and the seller had two sets and still has the other one. He's asking $1k, but he let me get a set for $750, so I assume that is the least he will let them go for.

https://offerup.com/item/detail/d05c13ae-2824-37aa-86fb-21bbe26c315e?q=f150+calipers

I can't say for sure they will also fit these trucks, but for the price, maybe someone here is interested in looking into it. Between the 15" Baer rotors, mounting hardware and brake pads, I had to spend another $1k in parts to get everything for the swap, but $1,700 for a $4k brake kit is still a hell of a deal.

I have been looking into doing a BBK for a little bit. I had done a Wilwood 6-pot upgrade on a 4Runner I had and to me it was night and day difference. I found an F-150 kit from Wilwood that should be compatible as well as a kit from SSBC. I'm leaning towards SSBC as their kit allows the use of OEM rotors and pads with their kit. The Wilwood can use the OEM rotor. A correspondence with Wilwood had them suggest I'd buy (and return) caliper bracket (250-15055) from Summit Racing to confirm that it fits the same as an F-150 mount. I'm pretty sure it will as I've heard of a few people upgrading their steering knuckles with F-150's.

What I have found that will be a minor catch is that the brake lines that the F-150 and Expedition use are different. AFAIK this is the fitting at the brake caliper that is different. I am unsure if the thread fitting at the hard line is a different thread as well. If this IS the same, this is not a big deal to simply swap out the flex line to the caliper. What I've found on this:

Expedition: 3/8-24
F-150: M10-1.5

 

[rugedraw]

I have been looking into doing a BBK for a little bit. I had done a Wilwood 6-pot upgrade on a 4Runner I had and to me it was night and day difference. I found an F-150 kit from Wilwood that should be compatible as well as a kit from SSBC. I'm leaning towards SSBC as their kit allows the use of OEM rotors and pads with their kit. The Wilwood can use the OEM rotor. A correspondence with Wilwood had them suggest I'd buy (and return) caliper bracket (250-15055) from Summit Racing to confirm that it fits the same as an F-150 mount. I'm pretty sure it will as I've heard of a few people upgrading their steering knuckles with F-150's.

What I have found that will be a minor catch is that the brake lines that the F-150 and Expedition use are different. AFAIK this is the fitting at the brake caliper that is different. I am unsure if the thread fitting at the hard line is a different thread as well. If this IS the same, this is not a big deal to simply swap out the flex line to the caliper. What I've found on this:

Expedition: 3/8-24
F-150: M10-1.5

The fitting of the line on the brake caliper is also my only concern. I would hate to take everything apart, get that far and have to stop. In the case of the F150, a different bracket for sure is needed to mount the caliper. Fortunately, one of the techs that works at my dealer is going to do the install for me. Like me, he is a Ford guy at heart and has an F150 himself. He is confident that if the fitting is different, he will have something in his toolbox to make it work.

 

[tominwi]

Ha - maybe we’re both right. My wife did like the red calipers, so I took care of that on her car. It’s gotta be good for 5 HP right?
View attachment 84854
View attachment 84855

The genesis for my original question was after recently taking possession of my ‘19 Navigator, a front brake job was due in short order because the rotors were warped. Time constraints dictated I just picked up the best rotors I could source locally to knock out the job. I usually conduct copious research when looking for the best brakes for the application, and always upgrading if feasible. After the fact, when conducting a cursory search for brakes, I noticed that all the PNs (primarily Motorcraft) were the same for all lines of the Expedition / Navigator.

As bb37 mentioned, seems like with added performance, upgraded brakes would be warranted. Doesn’t seem to be the case with these trucks. I do drive it like the 6,000# truck this it is, but wasn’t sure if more spirited driving with the OEM spec brakes would end up the same warped result.

Thanks for all the feedback fellas. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something.

Geez you guys. Now I need to paint mine, to match the color of my Timberline's trim. I dunno what to call that--orange? copper? rust (no!!!).

 

[kep5niner]

I agree with you to an extent.

I believe the larger brake packages on specialized cars are used as a marketing tool and for track-use. They are used to withstand repeatedly high-speed stops (or deceleration), and dissipate heat.

I began driving in the 1960’s and my first car was a 1965 Chevrolet Malibu 2-door. Drum brakes all around, and they faded and did not stop well.

Braking systems have come a long way, and now even the entry-level vehicles handle and brake very well.

Now - I’m still trying to figure out if people who have red brake calipers can stop quicker............

Geez you guys. Now I need to paint mine, to match the color of my Timberline's trim. I dunno what to call that--orange? copper? rust (no!!!).

Interestingly, I had to go with a no-name epoxy from the Amazon for the caliper paint on my wife’s Jag. I went with POR 15 caliper paint on a different vehicle, and was relatively satisfied with the results, but POR 15 didn’t have the correct red to match with the Jaguar center piece. Truth be told, the no-name caliper epoxy from Amazon has held up better then the POR 15 I used on another vehicle. It’s been over 2 years on the Jag, and it still cleans up like day one.

 

[lobsenza]

My front rotors were heat scorched at 32,000 miles. The pads still were in excellent shape. The rear pads were somewhat worn. I decided to upgrade to Powerstop rotors and pads all around like I did on my old Sequoia. So far, I am very pleased. They are much higher quality than the OEM brakes at a reasonable price.

 

[ROBERT BONNER]

Real day in the life from 25 yrs ago at Fomoco. I was the Advanced Manufacturing Manager for SuperDuty/Excursion at the time. We were looking at Chassis upgrades for 2005 MY. I went to two meetings one day, the first was "Initial Quality Improvement" that analyzed what we could do in 2005 MY to improve the warranty of the vehicle lines. It was more than spit-balling. To make a presentation at the meeting you had to have facts and Development data from the street or track. Believe it or not, at that time ~2002 MY, if the SuperDuty had of had zero brake TGW (things gone wrong) at 3 MIS (months in service) it would have had higher initial quality than Lexus (or any other vehicle the planet). As it was, the SuperDuty was centered in the Ford data which was ~90th percentile in the industry. The proposal of the day centered on data from a variety of brake system upgrades. The conclusion was that by simply increasing the thickness and weight of the front rotors to the tune of 5 lbs/vehicle we could eliminate ~85% of the Brake TGW's. While 5lbs on a Mustang or other passenger car was the automotive equivalent of state treason, felony tax evasion, or violating pronoun etiquette at a DNC convention....for the SuperDuty, it wasn't beyond consideration since the vehicle line wasn't included in the EPA fuel economy numbers.

The afternoon meeting that day was "Vehicle Engineering Status", which focused on 3 things: Cost, Weight, and Development Timing. Since they never suffered for timing violations and weight wasn't terribly important on this particular vehicle line, many people had taken to just calling it the "Cost" meeting. In that meeting, the only thing on the agenda concerned how much more money we would all make, if we could just shave 5 lbs off of the front brake rotor weight.

I began laughing openly in the meeting. When I was asked what the joke was, I read them the punchline from the morning meeting. A meeting that had been held in the same conference room with the same vehicle team. Each meeting had 10+ people in it, yet, I was the only person in both meetings....me, the guy representing the other 80% of the company that had to build the things. There was a compromise in the end, the Rotor thickness was carried over in 2005 even though the rotor design changed.

The best answer I can give you about the design of the brakes on different vehicles and packages comes down to who yells the loudest.

 

[Andy B]

I can agree with that to an extent. However, look at the brakes on a typical F150 and look at the brakes on a GT500. One of them has 6-piston Brembos, and it’s not the heavier of the two.

Cars used for sport driving like the GT500 have to contend with brake fade caused by repeated heavy braking and heat build up. That is not the anticipated used case of a 5500 pound SUV

 

[kep5niner]

I recognize that, and used the vastly different vehicles simply to illustrate my point. Seems that with the higher output 3.5, Ford / Lincoln would have offered more stout braking options. That appears to not be the case.