2010 Expedition, starting issues. Starter replaced twice, need next culprit...

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

Update: This gremlin still eludes me. 2 shops, 4 starters, starter relay, new battery and an ignition switch later and no fix. This latest incident was on vacation where I towed the camper down to the Keys. Used the car for several days no issue. Then randomly was getting some bait and nothing. No crank, no alerts, nothing. Tried 20 times, nothing. Was kind of relieved that the issue was really showing and maybe I could get to a shop with issue displaying. Was about to call AAA and figured one more turn and of course it starts right up. Back to the campsite it does it again. Leave it a while, try later and it cranks up.

Was able to make it home and took it to the last shop that replaced the last starter under Napa warranty. They had the truck 3 days and of course it declined to show itself. They say they've checked the wires so I'm at a loss. These guys have been great though and not charging me for these diagnostics.

This really stinks. If I can't trust the truck I can't tow anywhere of distance for fear it'll rear it's head at an inopportune time like the gas station with trailer in tow. Guess I could take it to a Ford dealer and see if they have any knowledge of something like this, but I'm afraid the issue will not happen and I'll just pay for their time.

When the no-start condition occurs, have you tried shifting into neutral and starting the engine? While trying to start the engine, try wiggling the shifter back-and-forth slightly.

Is it possible the neutral safety switch (or transmission range selector switch) is bad or out-of-adjustment?

 

[Frank Wilson]

When the no-start condition occurs, have you tried shifting into neutral and starting the engine? While trying to start the engine, try wiggling the shifter back-and-forth slightly.

Is it possible the neutral safety switch (or transmission range selector switch) is bad or out-of-adjustment?

This

 

[Johnathan M]

I agree that the neutral safety switch could be an issue. Fortunately, if that's the issue, it's a pretty easy fix. I changed it on my 05 expedition and it was mounted to the side of the transmission and was pretty easy to get to.

But I believe I also mentioned previously in this thread that it could be an issue with the PATS (antitheft) system. Have you noticed if the red light in the dash flashes quickly when you're trying to start it and nothing happens? If it does, that's a sign it's not recognizing your key, which could be a key issue, or it could be a problem with the immobilizer system. In my Lincoln MKZ, the PATS system was built into the instrument cluster and I had to change the instrument cluster to fix the same type of problem that you are having.

 

[Fasttimes]

When the no-start condition occurs, have you tried shifting into neutral and starting the engine? While trying to start the engine, try wiggling the shifter back-and-forth slightly.

Is it possible the neutral safety switch (or transmission range selector switch) is bad or out-of-adjustment?

I did think of this, and when issue is happening I did move to neutral and tried the start but no change. Also wiggled the key back and forth, back turn/forward turn, wiggle butno change.

I agree that the neutral safety switch could be an issue. Fortunately, if that's the issue, it's a pretty easy fix. I changed it on my 05 expedition and it was mounted to the side of the transmission and was pretty easy to get to.

But I believe I also mentioned previously in this thread that it could be an issue with the PATS (antitheft) system. Have you noticed if the red light in the dash flashes quickly when you're trying to start it and nothing happens? If it does, that's a sign it's not recognizing your key, which could be a key issue, or it could be a problem with the immobilizer system. In my Lincoln MKZ, the PATS system was built into the instrument cluster and I had to change the instrument cluster to fix the same type of problem that you are having.

I haven't noticed the PATS light blinking when the issue is happening, but it has crossed my mind.


I really feel this is an electrical signal delivery issue, that perhaps the wires from the batter to starter or starter relay to starter are bad internally. Perhaps as I drive the bounces in the road change the position of the wires and eventually it shows the issue. Although the last shop says they tested the wire, I feel they should be just replaced out of trouble-shooting caution. At least then that could be removed from the possibilities list.

 

[Fasttimes]

Took the Expy to my local dealer and it was a waste of time. And I quote, not once but twice "We generally don't work on vehicles this old". WTF? They said leave it there and they'll look at it. 3 days later I hear nothing, they did nothing, so I picked it up. Talk about frustrating. SMH

 

[71Rcode]

While trying to start the engine, try wiggling the shifter back-and-forth slightly.
this is the advice four or so posts up. I don't think you followed up about wiggling the key.

 

[Fasttimes]

While trying to start the engine, try wiggling the shifter back-and-forth slightly.
this is the advice four or so posts up. I don't think you followed up about wiggling the key.

Yeah, I've done both. Moved shifter back and forth, wiggled key, but seems to be no effect.

The issue just happened again twice after nothing for a week or more.

There just seems to be no pattern yet that I can see to cause the issue to show itself.

I was thinking maybe start with replacing the neutral safety switch. But after getting under the truck I don't see one, so I believe it's inside the transmission as I've read before that was possible. If that is the case, I'm not messing with this.

Might be time to sell the truck unfortunately.

 

[Johnathan M]

What year is your Expy?

 

[Fasttimes]

What year is your Expy?

2010.

 

[Eddie Hudson]

Try pushing the key / lock cylinder in when you try to start the car.

 

[BigOleFordFan]

Does your anti-theft light in the dash flash quickly when this happens? Had an issue similar in an 07 Lincoln MKZ that I had, and the problem was the PATS (anti-theft module) in the instrument cluster was bad. It was an intermittent problem, which made it hard to figure out, but replacing that seemed to help the problem.

I would also agree to check/swap the starter relay to eliminate that possibility. And the corroded cable end seems to be a possibility as well.

The fact that it starts fine when it does start, eliminates the battery as the problem.

This is almost exactly what was happening with my 011 EL Limited....and I did have the flashing padlock PATS light, as well as a brand new battery, cables and wiring harnesses...

It took 3 months & $3k worth of diagnostics, replacing both keys, the ignition switch, the HALO sensor, removing the remote start module, and checking most of the other stuff mentioned in this thread too.....the last dealership I took it to said the "Run/Start relay" was fried, which they replaced and it starts reliably every time now for over a month...

Fingers crossed

 

[dkarrels]

I'm having what seems like this exact issue. I can add this to the conversation:

- I used ForScan to troubleshoot this problem. Even when the car refused to crank, I saw that the computer was commanding the starter relay to enable. This shows that, for me at least, all of the sensors were providing input to the computer and it tried to start the engine. This, again for me, rules out the neutral position sensor and ignition switch as those are both inputs to the computer in support of the start decision. I monitored the input pins on the starter relay also in this diagnosis and saw it go from -1.5V to 9.7V-10.0V. This shows that the car is flipping all of the upstream relays in favor of trying to start. However that relay is not activating. Switching that relay with another doesn't seem to work so I suspect the issue is the voltage to that relay is too low, suggesting a corroded/loose wire upstream. Still working to find it. And now that I write this, I'm wondering if those connectors should be at 0.0V instead of -1.5V -- this *could* indicate a short somewhere. If the command input to that relay started at 0V and added 11.2V (-1.5->9.7), I suspect it would start.
- A takeaway here is that this condition has a work around. If I pull the starter relay, I can run a jumper wire between the high power connectors in the relay housing and it turns over and starts. Every time. I'm still not willing to use this as a solution, but it does at least offer an option if you really need to drive the vehicle.

I'll post here as I learn more.

 

[Fasttimes]

Update: The truck has been at the shop for over a month. It's a project for them, to figure out this mystery. They tell me they hooked up a power line with a light bulb to the starter, and when the issue happens the bulb does not come on. They say the power does come on after about 15-30 seconds for them. At this point, they're leaning towards the under-hood fuse box. Problem is, it's a Ford only part and it's on back-order till who knows when. Oh, and it's $500 as well with no guarantee that it's the problem for sure.

Frustrating is an understatement. If Ford can get me the part within a reasonable time, I'm willing to give it a try. But if on back-order means 3-4 months, I'm not sure I have the patience for this. I need a working truck.

 

[Fasttimes]

Update. Issue seems to have been fixed by the new under-hood fuse box. Starts on a dime and issue has not come back.

Now on to selling it. ;-)

 

[ccondor]

So my Expy has started an issue where all a sudden you turn the key and nothing, no partial crank, nothing. I almost got stuck at a gas station on a road trip, trailer in tow until after 20 tries is just starts. Local shop claimed stater even though there was no progression of starting capabilities. Starter replaced and issue happens again. Shop claims "bad starter". New one replaced and now issue is happening again.

Behavior is when it shows up there is no partial crank, that is until I try to restart like 3-4 times in quick succession and you get a partial crank. Wiggling the key doesn't seem to change it, but that is not 100% for sure. Remove key, put back in, wiggle, try again, try again and then it just starts like there is no issue. Drive, turn off. Starts up, turn off, and then maybe it appears again, maybe not. Frustrating.

So, what's next. I'm thinking maybe ignition switch? I think I recall people saying they are a common issue on these trucks? Should I replace the ignition starter switch? Any other thing it can be? Anti-theft?

Not fun when you can't use your ride for fear you'll get stuck.

Replace the coils had same issue and it is now resolved.