A/C Z134A vs. R134A

[1955moose]

Lack of high octane fuels was the biggest reason cars before 1949 had such low compression, and with it lackluster performance. It's amazing the Flathead Lincoln's, and Cadillacs were as strong running as they were. High octane fuels were developed after WWII. With the lead for a cushion as power boater stated, valves had a cushion of sorts so as not to destroy the exaust valve face and seats. In the 70's all the higher elevation warm areas like Los Angeles had horrible smog. With everyone driving cars, and trucks there, it exasperated the problem. It amazes me how stupid engineers and politicians can be when it comes to what their doing to our eco system. This Earth we all share can only take so much, and re build it's self so many times. What's next, we lose the moons tidal effects on the earth, and tsunamis take over, flooding all the coastal areas like SF, where I'm at. No, I know a lot of you my age or older are ticked off that cars, and freon, etc had to change or go away, but if they didn't, you would never have the modern day vehicles you love driving. We'd be like Cuba, driving 57 Chevys, and 52 Buicks, cause that's all their is!

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[bobmbx]

Google "looney gas room".

 

[TobyU]

Oh wait, here's a right thread. Disregard that last one over there about to lead in the wrong thread. Anyways wasn't the main reason that lead was added to Automotive fuels was prevent exhaust valve seat recession.

Lack of high octane fuels was the biggest reason cars before 1949 had such low compression, and with it lackluster performance. It's amazing the Flathead Lincoln's, and Cadillacs were as strong running as they were. High octane fuels were developed after WWII. With the lead for a cushion as power boater stated, valves had a cushion of sorts so as not to destroy the exaust valve face and seats. In the 70's all the higher elevation warm areas like Los Angeles had horrible smog. With everyone driving cars, and trucks there, it exasperated the problem. It amazes me how stupid engineers and politicians can be when it comes to what their doing to our eco system. This Earth we all share can only take so much, and re build it's self so many times. What's next, we lose the moons tidal effects on the earth, and tsunamis take over, flooding all the coastal areas like SF, where I'm at. No, I know a lot of you my age or older are ticked off that cars, and freon, etc had to change or go away, but if they didn't, you would never have the modern day vehicles you love driving. We'd be like Cuba, driving 57 Chevys, and 52 Buicks, cause that's all their is!

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If we're all driving 68 to 72s would be super happy. I would be generous and throw in the late forties and 50 s also. I had one of those 49 Flathead Lincoln's 9eh motor I believe it was called. It ran smoothly but didn't really have that much power of course it was in like a 6500 pound vehicle.

 

[1955moose]

Actually your lead sled Lincoln Cosmopolitan was around 4400 to 4800 pounds depending on model/accessories. By the way the 49 Lincoln is one of my favorite cars. I used to have framed prints of that very car. Bob, I read the story about those guys that went bonkers working with lead. My first real jobs were at gas stations pumping that lovely stuff. Explains why I act like Ralph Kramden in my later years. Ironically my last job, I drove a bus!

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[TobyU]

I always kind of wanted to have it weighed as it was 100% Factory with nothing but the spare tire in the trunk so it would have been the same as the published weights. I just didn't trust the published weights. I just never seen a car so heavy or even hard to bounce up and down. It was an absolute tank.

 

[1955moose]

My neighbor and friend let me drive his 49 Lincoln back in 73. Great car. I sent you pm, get back when you can.

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[Mubarakma]

I have 2010 Limited 2010 last year I have replaced compressor and cleaned AC circuit in the car after that evaporator start leaking blind door actuator start giving noise except condenser almost every thing in AC system replaced lowest temperature out of AC duct I got was 40 F (4.44 degrees Celsius)on a temperature gauge with R134A other car I have is Lincoln Town car 2000 with it's OEM compressor un-serviced AC system car is in an acceptable condition but I can see 34-35 F(nearly 1-1.5 Degree Celsius ) on a temperature gauge out of AC duct on R134A I don't know why but old Town car is far better in AC performance.

 

[TobyU]

Different designs do vary it a lot.
I had a 2000 Chrysler LHS that I replaces compressor on that was hitting 29 degrees on the thermometer while rolling down the street. I have had more than one put ice on windshield from the slight air that leaks to defrost and many ice the lines coming out of evap like a house ac freeze up.
I think a lot of it has to do with size or capacity efficiency of the condenser and airflow.
In the 90s when I did a lot of retros from R-12 to R-134a, some cars convert with no real difference and some never get as cold esp when idling. An add of fan up front helps but some need nothing and are great.

 

[G213]

With temps hitting the high 90s here in LA over the past couple days and in stop and go traffic, any R134a system leaves something to be desired.

I have to ask (for educations sake)....could one put R12 in an Expy's R134a system? (You don't have to say that you actually have done it, this is asking for curiosity)

I understand that the oils are not compatible and you'd need to remove them, but aside from that, it should cool more effectively and run at a lower pressure, correct?

 

[TobyU]

I even tried to put R22 in an 85 GM with DA6 compressor but not a good compressor so never got to see.
Yes the prob would be the oil. Any left becomes black sludge, but lets say you had a new system or very well flushed....many cars would be much better with R-12. Some would freeze up.
So many cars today an over the past many years have fixed orifice tubes and some version of an expansion valve with few having actual temp sensing coil bub on the low line which would in theory take care of freezing up if you had a "better" refrigerant.

Chrysler used a lot of expansion valves but I don't remember seeing a temp bulb on all of them.
GM (since around late 70s to early 80s) and fords mostly use orifice tube.
They do make different tubes.

This may be a improvement fix for you.
I remember when retros were popular there were two position tubes to held with higher duct temps when idling in traffic. Can't say I ever tried one though.
I know there are still different color ones which I believe represents size of fixed opening.

Problem with refrigeration is more flow doesn't always equal colder. Usually it does but only to a point and the refrigerant's properties has a lot to do with it.


The best thing is often a pusher fan in front of condenser and a a good condenser cleaning if dust, bugs, and fuzz all over it.
You can relay a fan to the compressor or the pressure switch so it's on only when you need it.

A lot of limos used to put an add on smaller condenser off to one side in the front. It was a special kit just for town cars that MTG and Infinite Innovations used to sell.
It helped some but then you are adding the potential for more leaks.

 

[G213]

Good info, thanks! Have you ever had experience with or tried Duracool? I've read that it about as good as R12 and is compatible with R134a oils. I know it's more flammable and such but again, just curious.

 

[TobyU]

Good info, thanks! Have you ever had experience with or tried Duracool? I've read that it about as good as R12 and is compatible with R134a oils. I know it's more flammable and such but again, just curious.

Yes I have a case or so here now.
Almost all of those regardless of name are HC blends. Hydrocarbon blends.
They are a real hush hush kind or gray area don't ask don't tell thing.

They barely get by with legally selling them and the safety freaks don't help matters any.
You can buy them for cars and for houses...like HC22.
Rural King sold some 30 lb (or equivalent) jugs a couple of years ago and probably still do.

They are compatible with PAG oil or 134a and will lower duct temp.
I got 8-10 degrees on same day in exact same conditions after swapping one over back in 2008.

I can't say what the real world long term durability for compressor is and if if it does leak any and gets low, due to being blend and leaking at different percentages etc, you are supposed to evacuate and recharge. You also charge as a liquid only! (as far as I know)
With compressor quality nowadays (or lack thereof) I don't really think it matters.

The fear mongering (and yes I've seem the Porsche video that catches on fire) of a leak going to burst into flames is WAY overplayed.
Cars do burst into all the time! But the percentage is super low. There are a lot of cars in the world!!
Gasoline leaks cause a lot if not most of these fires...and ones that are not "started" by gas leak are often electrical or at first massive overheating which either causes wires to melt and catch fire or melts fuel lines (gotta love those plastic flexible quick connects they have under hood) and then the gas is what really flames!

AC refrigerant leaks are s-l-o-w. Any leak that is faster than that will be all gone in less than 3 days so there will be none left to be flammable.
I have an 05 Saab now that leaks out in two days. Filled it once to see and haven't bothered since.

Here's the dealbreaker for most. They are usually a butane propane mix or isobutane propane mix. ---hear the gasps now....

Now remember the new z1234 or whatever it's called is also flammable.
R134a wasn't considered flammable but new is so I don't know to what degree we are talking but it is more since it IS flammable.
So much so that I think it's Mercedes that for now is refusing to use it and I read they cite flammability possibility.

So you really have nothing to lose but some time and a few bucks if you want to try a HC replacement. I definitely got colder vent temps on a challenged system.

Do a search for drop in replacements.
I think even Johnson had one but not HC. I think there were/are some azeotropic blends of different refrigerants that give better results than r134a.

 

[TobyU]

I did a quick search and I can see the internet has been taken over by the 1234YF BEING the drop in for R134a . NOT!!
There were other "drop ins" before this was made up.
Enviro- Safe HC Blend came up a little into it. I think that was the exact brand I used on the one above but I have used Duracool too.

I found info on R152A and it looks promising.

 

[TobyU]

Just came up from the rabbit hole for air....
I have decided to put pure gas grill propane in the next one I test.
They say it is better colder than R134 and that's what I want to see.
Charge as a liquid and shouldn't be too hard to rig and adapter to old my gauge set which is already on old R-12 set with R-134a adapter hoses with cut off valves.

 

[max78]

Back before I cared about blowing myself up I did some experimenting, as well as some research.

DISCLAMER DO NOT DO THIS!!!! This is for informational purposes only.

My 92 Cherokee was R12, R134a didn't work for crap in it so I tried some things. I will try to keep it short.

The 134a in my jeep had extremely high pressure and never cooled worth a damn, I'm talking 75° vent temps at best on a 100° day. The reason being is the condenser and evaporator design were never meant to be used with R134a which is a much less efficient refrigerant.

I got tired of it so I recovered my 134a and pulled a vacuum. I then refilled it with propane. Yes propane from a green camping cylinder, with an adapter I built. I refilled it by weight, just a little less than what it called for R12 wise. There is a calculation to compare R12 and propane, the propane is a slightly bigger more compressible gas than R12 from what I remember, so you used a little less.

I ran around with that in my system for about 6 months during the summer months. It worked GREAT!!!! My vent temps on a 100° day were right around 40°. The pressure were MUCH lower, my fuel economy increased, and I had a noticeable performance boost because the propane is easier to compress. But the pressure can get way out of control, that's why it's stored in heavy steel cylinders. You should really use a propane/isobutan mix, but I didn't.

Fast forward This was only ever an experiment and I did not like running around with explosive gas in my AC. This was only ever to prove that the 134a was the issue.

There are some people that do it in other countries but I didn't care for it long term.

After a bit too much research I found R152a (difluoroethane). . . This refrigerant has almost identical properties to R12. . . and the best part is its SUPER cheap! And even better its completely legal to vent to atmosphere! I paid $8 for 2 cans.







I drained the system and flushed it with some AC flush, installed new seals and parts. I pulled a good long vacuum to make sure that the system was as good as it could be. I refilled the system by weight. The pressures were good, and the performance was GREAT!

This is what I get into at the end of the day.





This is 5 minutes down the road with 152a in my clapped out Jeep. Sometimes it would drop below 40°, it was GREAT!




And the Jeep in question. A year of heavy use and it still worked great till the day I sold it.

 

[mquick5]

I've had the better part of a 20lb jug of r12 collecting dust in my garage for over 20 yrs!

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