Brake upgrade - towing

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mjayn

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Every year late in the summer my brakes start pulsing. I take 4 or 5 800+ mile fishing trips a summer. I have replaced the pads and had the rotors turned a few times.

I would like to upgrade to some sturdier rotors(and pads) that wont warp every year. Lots of breaking with a small/medium boat seems to take a toll. Lots of boat ramps and crappy roads, and big hills.

I have read through alot of threads and have noted some suggested brands for pads and rotors. But I didn't read any that addressed towing. maybe it doesn't matter, but wanted to make sure towing is considered.

My main concern is the front brakes at this point.


2010 Expedition 5.4, towing package. 3.31
 

HawkX66

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You might find it's not warped rotors. Search for "pulsing brakes". You should be able to find something about the build up of brake dust on the rotor. I think most people that swear they have warped rotors, don't.

First one is from Power Stop:
It is hard to imagine the energy required to stop a vehicle traveling at 110 mph. Kinetic energy is ½ mass times the velocity squared KE = ½ mv2. Stopping a 2500 lb car requires 352,800 ft-lb of energy, the equivalent of dropping the car from an 11 story building. When you stop, almost all of this energy is converted into heat through the rotor in a very short time. Brake Rotors are designed to get hot, often in excess of 1400 degrees F. Contrary to popular belief, the temperature does not cause the rotors to warp, and this is not the reason why you get pulsating brakes. So what causes the brake pedal to pulse or feel like its vibrating?

The answer lies in understanding how friction works, and how high spots form on the rotor to cause the pulsating brakes. There are two primary mechanisms of friction at work during the stop: 1) adherent friction and 2) abrasive friction. For adherent friction, a thin layer of material is continuously transferred between the brake pad and the rotor. The breaking of the chemical bonds creates a resistant force to stop the vehicle. Abrasive friction is the mechanical wearing of the rotor and friction surface, like sand paper on wood. Brake pads use both mechanisms, but at higher temperature, adherent friction is what stops the car. The brake pad deposits material on the rotor, and as the pad gets hot, more material gets deposited. These deposits are caused by the resin (glue) in the pad. All brake pads use a binding resin that holds the friction component materials together. This resin turns to liquid as the pads get hot, and the resin material along with some other material in the pad gets deposited on the rotor. On overheated rotors, sometimes you can see the glazed resin material. It can look like someone brushed syrup on the rotor. The resin glazing forms a high spot on the rotor surface.

Another way to form a high spot on the rotor is if you clamp down on the brake after a hot stop. When the pad gets hot, it wants to transfer friction material to the rotor and it does not care if the rotor is stationary or rotating. If you are at a stand-still, the pad will imprint material on the rotor in the shape of the pad. The next time you brake, as the pad passes over the high spot, the temperature increases relative to the rest of the rotor. This causes more material to get deposited on this spot until it gets high enough to cause pulsating brakes. It does not take a lot of material to cause this brake judder, only .0007 inch is enough to start to feel the pulsation. PowerStop friction is engineered with lower resin content to maintain a uniform boundary layer of friction on the rotor. Another way to prevent glazing or non-uniform friction deposits, is to install drilled rotors. Drilled rotors help keep the pad cooler to prevent pad glazing.

Key Steps To Prevent Brake Pedal Pulsation:
  • 5 moderate to aggressive stops from 40 mph down to 10 mph in rapid succession without letting the brakes cool and do not come to a complete stop. If you're forced to stop, either shift into neutral or give room in front so you can allow the vehicle to roll slightly while waiting for the light. The rotors will be very hot and holding down the brake pedal will allow the pad to create an imprint on the rotor. This is where the judder can originate from.
    Then do 5 moderate stops from 35 mph to 5 mph in rapid succession without letting the brakes cool. You should expect to smell some resin as the brakes get hot.
    After this is complete, drive around for as long as possible without excessively heating the brakes and without coming to a complete stop (Try for about 5 minutes at moderate speed). This is the cooling stage. It allows the heated resin in the brake pads to cool and cure.
    After the brakes have cooled to standard operating temperature, you may use the brakes normally.


Another site:
Surface Variation

The late Carroll Smith, a racing driver and engineer, wrote of what he learned about disc brakes while working on the original Ford GT40 race car in the 1960s when automotive disc brakes were still new. Smith noted that although a brake rotor can warp in many different ways, he never saw a properly assembled rotor warp in a way that causes brake pedal pulsation. He said that, whether on a race car or a street-driven grocery getter, the rotor irregularity that most commonly causes pedal pulsation results from uneven transfer of friction material from the pad to the rotor. To understand this, we need to understand two basic concepts about brakes.
First of all, brakes are designed to work within a specific temperature range and the pad friction material is designed with that range in mind. The friction material used for racing doesn’t work at all when the brakes are cold, and the materials that work best for noise reduction can be severely overheated when used on a race car.
Secondly, during normal use, friction material abrades from the brake pad and adheres to the rotor, forming an extremely thin layer of friction material on the rotor. When the pads and rotor are new, the bedding-in process establishes the initial layer. With continued use, the friction material is abraded away from the rotor and replaced with new material from the pad.
If the brakes are not properly bedded-in or if the pads are severely overheated at any time, the transfer of friction material from pad to rotor becomes uneven. Heavier deposits can be seen as stains or dark spots on the rotor that won’t wash off. Even if you can’t measure a thickness variation at these spots, they will have a different coefficient of friction when hot. Since that layer of material is only microns thick, it can be cut away by a brake lathe. If uneven deposits happen again, it’s time to select a brake pad that can handle higher temperatures.
 
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RogerD1959

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Darn, 60 years here on earth! Finally somebody answers the break wiggle/jiggle/pulsate question for me,that I have always wanted the real skinny on! In a way that makes total sense! So, I guess I wasted a ton of money, two lifetimes ago, when I lived at the top of a Virginia mountain. I drove a 1977 Lincoln Town Coupe, always used the second gear selection to go down the mountain to work every day. Every 8 or 9 months I was replacing the front rotors and break pads. The Lincoln dealer said the daily decent is what was eating up the front brakes. Ford did not make the rotors diameter large enough, to handle the mass of the vehicle under those constant extremes! That's possible I guess. If you let that boat fly down the mountain in drive all the time. I must swallow a little bit of pride now that I know most of those $ 400.00 brake jobs were not necessary! I also think the Lincoln dealer really thought the daily off mountain commute was tearing the front breaks up! I think we were both dumb on the issue. However, if you descended the mountain in second gear, I did not really use the breaks that much, only through the sharp turns. Live and learn they say. Thank you HawkX66 for setting me straight after all these years!
 
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mjayn

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Thanks HawkX66,

In all my years I have never heard of this. I was able to pull off 6 30 to 5 mph stops. And the brakes smoothed out.

Thanks again for the explanation with excellent details.
 

HawkX66

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Thanks HawkX66,

In all my years I have never heard of this. I was able to pull off 6 30 to 5 mph stops. And the brakes smoothed out.

Thanks again for the explanation with excellent details.
You're welcome and glad to hear it worked out for you!
 

Adieu

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Wait what?

California rolled stop signs and being stuck in traffic behind geniuses on a freeway prevents brake issues?

Hmm... no wonder I've never had any kind of brake work on any vehicle lol
 

JimmyM

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Thanks for the detailed explanation above.
I have an '11 XLT that I use when towing my 6500lb camper. I use NAPA Premium Rotors and Hawk LTS pads. After every time I've done the brakes I go through the bedding/seasoning process described above. After a hard stop I try not to let the truck sit there still with my foot on the brakes. Just keep it rolling a little if you have to. That sort of stop where things get really hot are rare. I've never "warped" a rotor or had pulsation issues.
I can't say enough good things about the Hawk LTS pads.
 

rowekmr

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Thanks for the very detailed and informative explanation. I have heard that pulsating brake pads is normally not warped rotors but never saw it explained so clearly before.
 

StephanSloan

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I used the Hawk pads and was pleased but didn't see the benefit of what was 1.5-2x price of Power Stop. We use the Expedition for pulling a horse trailer so I like a lot of meat on the brake pads and change them more frequently than required.
Stephan
 

JimmyM

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The Power Stop Z36 pads look pretty good, but I have no first hand knowledge. For Fronts, they're $55, the Hawks are $82.
I'm all for trying something new, but if I don't like them I have to pay for another set of pads. I have to change my Hawks every 2 years or so.
 
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mjayn

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Ok, Thanks to Hawk for helping me get rid of the pulsating brakes. But I still had nearly warn out pads. So I have to get a new set of pads and one of the rotors is pretty gouged out. Maybe its salvageable, but if needed I would like to upgrade the rotors.

Looks like the Power stop z36 and the Hawk Performance HB579Y.785 LTS Brake Pad are the way to go.

Now I need a rotor. I looked at a few suggestions and the Centric plain rotors has a few option, not sure what/which to do?

All I am looking for is a small upgrade from stock for not too much money. Not trying to save every penny, just want a decent upgrade, for a decent price.

So if anyone has suggestions on rotors exact model, Centric or another brand it would be appreciated.


Also those are the correct pads? I am just doing the fronts to start.


I only tow a small fishing boat about 2000 hwy miles a year with a hundred or so miles on logging roads. So towing may not even be a serious factor.


thanks
 

Blksmk

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Jan 15th I'll be installed the full power stop z36 front and rear kit and my new tires.

Once done I'll give a review and ad pictures of the install.
 
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mjayn

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Where are you purchasing if you don't mind me asking. I am still lost on what rotors to get. The Centric Plain on amazon has only one in stock. Everywhere else I look has 5 or 6 kinds of rotors with long model numbers that I don't know what they mean. I would have to get the wrong one.

The z36 front kit looks perfect for me, except I didn't really want drilled and/or slotted rotors due to my mech saying he can't turn them.

I am still leaning toward the Hawk pads and Centric rotors as members here have had success, just want to make sure I get the correct rotors.
 
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mjayn

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What does the number after the K mean?


Power Stop K2163-36 Z36 Truck & Tow Front Brake Kit

Power Stop K2009-36 Z36 Truck & Tow Front Brake Kit

Power Stop K3167-36 Z36 Truck & Tow Front Brake Kit



I must be using bad terminology because I am trouble finding an explanation of what these numbers represent.
 
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Blksmk

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I'm not sure I think the k is referring to kit. Instead of 1 part it comes as a pair??
I ordered mine thru my own performance shop. So i got cost. All said i paid 1300 cdn for full front/rear kit and 860 for 4 tires
 

Franklin Jones

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I just did the pads on mine. Front and rear.

We just bought ours last month - haven’t even made our first payment yet. We traded in our 2006 Yukon XL with 240k miles on it. And we used it to pull a little 25’ hybrid camper.

When we got the Yukon, I upgraded the brakes right away. We took it on a trip through Colorado, and the brakes were strained just moving the truck down the mountain, no camper included. So I upgraded the rotors, the calipers, and the pads to a slotted and drilled Power Stop kit from a 2007 Yukon. They went from a 12 inch rotor to a 13, and the caliper was much larger accordingly. The Yukon stopped great after that.

When I went to change the brakes on the Expy, it knocked me over. Damn rotor looks three feet across and a foot thick comparatively. Pads as big as my hand, and a dual piston caliper to boot. Made the upgraded kit on the Yukon look like my son’s legos.

My point? I think you’re overthinking this. OEM rotors are quite stout, and anything that has that much mass is going to do a great job of stopping your rig when paired with a quality pad.

Go with whatever brand you can get at a good price, and don’t sweat it.

https://www.amazon.com/2010-expedit...------","vehicleName":"2010+Ford+Expedition"}
 
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mygsris2slo4u

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I recently purchased the powerstop z36 kit K5577-36 kit for my 2017 on Amazon for $379 including tax. It looks like this is the correct kit for a 2010 as well.

I installed two days ago and have been impressed over the first hundred miles or so. They definitely stop shorter than the factory brakes. I'm not sure how resistant to fade they are as I have not towed with them or had to drive on any significant grades. We will see how long they last though I'd expect shorter life due to the pad material and the slotted/drilled rotors.
 
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