It worked until it didn't - 2000 Ford Exp EB No Crank

[Daniel A Havens]

2000 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4l - 186,000 miles

So, the Expy was running rough again, and I knew it was COPs and/or Plugs again, which were replaced about 30K ago, and the symptoms were the same (sputtering, rough mid-range), but worse than last time. Pulled the COPs and a couple were swimming in oil, so decided to finally address the problem (leaking valve covers). Gutted out what I could, disconnected a ton of shit, and wrestled my way to new gaskets, new plugs, and clean COPs. Once I got everything back together, I prayed to the valve train gods and crossed my fingers that it would be a disaster.

Turned the key, and it started right up. Began inspecting the valve covers for any leaks and have not found anything that looks like new oil. It ran smooth as butter, and spit a bit of smoke from the oil that leaked into the combustion chambers.

Then, it made one screeching noise, which sounded like a belt, but didn't affect the way it was running. About a 1 second screech and done. As the engine purred, I continued to walk around and inspect the gaskets, just waiting to see a flood of oil dump out, but everything looked tight and clean.

Then I noticed a drip from the transmission, which could easily have been there prior to all the work. I took it for a slow drive around the cul-de-sac to see if the transmission had any symptoms, but it was same as it ever was.

tldr....worked on the truck, it seemed to be running fine.

This is when I turned it off, now it won't start. No Crank, power drops and lights go out. Starter Solenoid on firewall is clicking, but no juice to starter.

Turns out I wired the alternator to the wrong terminal on the Starter Solenoid. Attached to the top bolt, not the bottom. Fixed that, but still nothing working. Battery is testing low, so tried to jump it with my RAM. Plenty of juice flowing to the EXPY, but no crank, and still the lights go.

Being a total newb with electronics, I checked the most important fuses related to the starter and ignition, but everything looks fine.

Okay, to my question. What would hooking the alternator up to the wrong terminal do? Did I run the starter continuously while it was running, and ruin something in the starter? Would this in any way be able to damage the transmission (long shot, but ??)

Secondly, should I just take the battery in and test it? Should I grab a new starter while I am at it?

Sorry for the novel, but that's what I did...It worked until it didn't and now I'm just lost.

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Another note to add to the novel. Now when I put the key into the run position prior to starting, the starter makes a little purring noise for a second then stops.

 

[stamp11127]

Welcome to the site. Your best bet would be to learn how the starter circuit works instead of listing a bunch of "could be this or could be that".

Eric the Car Guy is a good place to start:


This is a good one on how to test the circuit without turning any wrenches. Plus this is what I hammer into the Intro Students I teach.

 

[Daniel A Havens]

I have been doing my best with researching the circuits, but just finally thought I would put the story out here and see if anything sticks. Better to learn the concepts and understand what may be happening than to just monkey around until something works.

My main concern would be hooking the alternator up incorrectly when I was re-assembling and if that would have killed the battery or killed the starter. I will keep on researching and see if something inside my brain finally clicks and I get the whole electricity thing.

Thanks

 

[stamp11127]

While you are learning the theory of how this works you may want to invest in a decent dmm (digital multi meter). That way instead of saying the battery is low you could say a specific voltage.

Once you have a meter, tell us the battery voltage and what it drops to when trying to start.

 

[Daniel A Havens]

So battery had tested at just 11.3v and drops to just 11.1 in start position. I am trying to test all the sections between to see where it dies and get some longer leads to run to the starter. I appreciate the video, it is one of the better examples of the starting circuit and the use of the multi-meter.

All this 12volt electricity just puts me off, as I feel like I'm going to shock myself, or short something out. I'll keep working on it and let you know what I find.

 

[stamp11127]

12 volts dc is smoke then fire, higher voltages will go from tingle to a job opening (yours) depending on how high the voltage is.

I had a student grab on to a string of 9v batteries that were in series to produce @288 volts. He found out at that voltage the human body is a conductor. Ended up with 2 little burn spots on his hands. We call him "Ol sparky" now.

You should charge the battery back up on a slow charge setting and bring it back up to 100% state of charge.

 

[studabaker]

If you didnt have the alternator hooked up it was running on stored battery power. if you just switched those then you might have sent current to the alternator but i think it may not have done damage. Slow charge the battery. +1

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Charged the battery to 12.4v, but it dropped back to 11.5v in just 30 minutes, so that doesn't seem right.

Drop testing gave me some readings, but I have no idea what to make of them. With the key in run, I am getting about 6v drop from the battery to the top post and 0.03v drop on the bottom post on the starter solenoid on the firewall. When the key is turned to start, both go to 0.03v drop.

The starter is showing full 11.5v at the starter, but the ground point loses 4-5v. If I use the bell housing to ground, it doesn't lose anything.

Again, I'm lost with what the readings mean, and if I am doing anything to move myself towards an answer. Any help is appreciated, just don't like this electronic stuff at all. Thanks

 

[Adieu]

So battery had tested at just 11.3v and drops to just 11.1 in start position. I am trying to test all the sections between to see where it dies and get some longer leads to run to the starter. I appreciate the video, it is one of the better examples of the starting circuit and the use of the multi-meter.

All this 12volt electricity just puts me off, as I feel like I'm going to shock myself, or short something out. I'll keep working on it and let you know what I find.

11.something volts = Your battery has 1 dead cell

Lights will work, powe locks and probably radio will work, A/C might blow....but it won't crank a V8

Looks like a new battery is needed.


PS see if you cant start it with the Ram's battery (swapped in, not jumping). Even if the size ain't right for properly affixing it, it should have about the same amps specs and could put your mind at ease if it works. And you'll know what to buy that way

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Swapped batteries and still same click and nothing else. 2.5v drop to the top terminal on the starter relay when key at run. I don't know what to do with that information. Almost bought a new relay, but figured that I'd wait until I have a clue if it is toasted. I have a feeling it is, but this truck doesn't care about my feelings.

 

[studabaker]

The good thing is that taking a systematic approach should get you to a fault. These cut of if there is not enough to turn it over. If you crank the engine manually it is not easy. You sound confident its an electrical problem. The more you learn your self the better you will feel acomplished. I am thinking of a new battery myself and they are as much as optimas used to be. Im shopping around. there must be a thread on the best battery for you buck on here. Search that and try a friends battery to be sure. I have a kind of wierd rythm to mine which could be the battery. I have been repairing the electrical connections to the cops but my repairs may not have been done perfectly. I really need to go back through those because i did not soldier them as is best to do when replacing electrical connectors. Thats not really relevant to your issue. Maybe a jumper box should get it going and that could be a test and lead you away from the battery. If you give it a jump that should start it then you might want to look elsewhere. Repeatedly jumping is not great on the other vehicle battery. Use a jumper box or tow truck. Maybe theres a service that will bring out a jump box.

 

[stamp11127]

Hit the starter with a hammer about mid section on the body. Need one good wack then try to start again. If it doesn't start then it is time to voltage drop test the circuits. Do you understand what he is doing in the 2nd video? If not, what do you need help with?

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Already tried the magical hit the starter fix, and no luck. I'll get back out there sometime soon with a better plan to test each section of the circuit. It's a rainy one today in Seattle, so not planning to play with electricity while wet.

I'll review the video again and go through a step by step to get some better data to help with a proper diagnosis. Thanks for the help guys, at least I am not suffering alone.

 

[studabaker]

You can get the starter tested at the part shop. They are usually pretty easy. Cant say ive done it on this vehicle.

 

[rjdelp7]

Check start circuit fuse, new starter relay.

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Finally got an assistant and a dry day to get back on this headache. So I'll list out the info and see what we all agree is the issue. Still same symptoms - all electronics working / turn key / lights/dash go dark / no crank / one click at the starter relay on the firewall / nothing else

First number is key in, second number is under load/key start

Battery - 12.21/12.5 - voltage goes up when key is turned.
Starter points voltage drop from battery
s-terminal - .42 / .05 (red lead battery + post / black lead on s-terminal)
b-terminal - .00 / .00 (red lead battery + post / black lead on b-terminal)
m-terminal - 12.21 / 12.5 - (red lead battery + post / black lead m-terminal)
ground - 0.01 / 0.00 (red lead battery - post / black lead starter body)


So the starter circuit looks okay, the power supply looks okay, so the starter itself is the culprit??? I don't know why, but my brain just won't absorb a basic understanding of electronic circuits.

 

[stamp11127]

Need to know where you placed both meter leads for each measurement. Readings are taken with key at start position - circuit has to be energized.

For instance:
Source voltage: 12.2v
Red lead on battery + post
Black lead on top large starter relay lug
VD of ***

 

[Daniel A Havens]

Updated the post with the locations of the leads. First number is key in, second number is key at start position.

 

[stamp11127]

If the M terminal connects the relay to the positive lug on the starter that is pointing to the contact disc in the relay is bad. To verify do another vd test on the large studs of the starter relay. Red lead will go on the stud that connects the cable to the positive battery post, the black lead will go on the other large stud on the relay.
Turn key to start, if more than .5v relay is bad.
You can jump the large studs with a screw driver and see if the starter turns at this point. I would charge the battery to 100‰ first. Expect some sparks when you make contact with both studs. You just want to "bump" the starter first to see if it works.
If you haven't done this before it can scare you some the first few times - you get used to it after a couple.