Swapped a 1998, 4.6 out of the expedition and put a 2002, 5.4 in it. Swapped the pcu as well. Pats was not having it. So I just gotva pats module from a 2002. Still not working. Any help at all? Please? I do not want to junk it.
Pats problems after engine swap
- Thread starter watchamal
- Start date
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Billme
Full Access Members
I put your question exactly to Grok 3 on X, and this is what it said:
DieselMonk
Full Access Members
Well… swapping it is one thing, but you need to relearn / program it too!
MesaGuy
Well-Known Member
Grok3's advise (the AI) is pretty good. But its also the kitchen sink, and all the plumbing.
You swapped in Engine, and PCU from 2002 5.4V to the 1998 (originally 4.6). You left out some bits that are important.
Are you using the 2002's keys and key cylinder? If no, then your keys don't match the PATS code, and the engine won't fire.
Did you swap out the instrument cluster from the 2002 to the 1998? (Which is illegal in every state unless you have the IC reprogrammed for the correct mileage.) If not, then the 1998's IC (PATS) and the Engine PATS and the PCU PATS don't match, and the engine won't fire.
The Instrument Cluster, the PCU, and the keys all have to match, as well as the 3 pieces being able to communicate with each other properly over the wiring harness.
I am NOT a true expert here, but I a bit.
PAT's wise, the 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 were the same.
PAT's wise, the 1997 and 1998 are the same with each other but different than above.
From where you are now, I would try this, no guarantees:
Get the IC from the same vehicle you got the engine and PCU, and install that. (The mileage is digital, and comes from the PCU.)
Get the Forescan utility, and Pay the $50 for the paid version (needed for PATS key stuff), and buy the Forescan recommended (higher priced) connection adapter. It costs about $50 more than cheaper choices, but it works, automatically, and well. The $50 in savings is NOT worth it, just pay the extra $100.
Forescan can reprogram the keys on the 2002 PATS (IC, Engine, PCU) and your "old" keys that match the 1998 key cylinder and external car doors.
But if the IC, PCU, and key cylinder are not talking to each other properly over the 1998 harness, Forescan cannot handle that. (Its $50 bucks... SW, $50 HW).
Then you choices are fewer and more expensive.
I would also point out it NOT just your engine turning over (your immediate problem now, you have other problems too.) When you swap the PCU out as you have, you need to have the PCU reprogrammed to for these details on your vehicle:
Mileage (technically, otherwise its odometer fraud).
Tire Size (unless the 2002 donor, and 1998 had the same size tires)
Differential Gear Ratio (unless the 2002 donor, and the 1998 had the same diff gear/axle ratio).
You also have to tell the PCU if 4x4 or 4x2,
You also have to tell the PCU about the Transmission Type (4R70 (most 4x2's), and 4R100, all 4x4's, and some 4x2's).
Because..., the PCU is also the TCU in this vehicle.
If the gear ratio and tire size and 4x2 vs. 4x4 settings are wrong, you speedometer will not work correctly. (You will get the wrong speed show on the speedmeter. Even though its an "analog" type of needle, its actually a digiital speedometer, its all in the PCU.... calculated, based on the vehicle transmission speed sensor. So, amoung other reasons, why you need to tell the PCU what transmission type).
If the 4R70 vs. 4R100 is set wrong, you will destroy your transmission.
Probably the "best" option (IMHO) is to find a 3rd-party (non-dealer) Ford shop, with full IDS subscription, e.g. call discuss to the fine points, and then have it towed there. And while you are AT IT: Because you swapped the PCU, you have OTHER THINGS you may need to have reprogrammed! (See above. So you need to make a list for the guy, Gear Ratio, tire list, 4x4vs.4x2, trans-type. They can figure it all out for you, but that is time they will charge you for, and the price will go up..... Discuss this in the price discussion before towing it there. The place you pick would be a place that specialized in Fords typically. They can use the IDS tool to reprogram and relearn all three parts together, and the keys. But the knowledge is substantially rarefied in non-dealer land, they have to cover the cost of their IDS subscription and tool, and so they are going to charge you.... a LOT. Like $500 to $750. But they will do it, and if its not impossible because the harness is not compatible, they will get you there.
Option2: Same as above, except using the dealer. A lot of dealers might not touch it. Particularly because of the 1998 wiring harness + 2002 stuff. But if you can find one that can, there is absolutely no way they are going to give you a guarantee on success, or the work. And the bill will be double. So about $1000 I'd say. But since they cannot be sure (and neither can you), that everything is good mechanically on all the work you did (because you can't get the PCU to turnover the engine because of PATS...) they are going to be very leery. And most of them won't take the job.
Option3: The cheepest route, no gurantees. You can find guys that have IDS, and will do reprogramming. Its always a side-hussle with them. (They often use boot-leg IDS units (some of them are quite good, and some not so much. All copies from China.) And usually counterfieted IDS software. (Lots of variation there as well.) If you have the 2002 IC installed, the 2002 PCU installed, the 1998 keys ready....
The VIN for the vehicle. (Use the 1998's..., the original VIN, you are paying to get then to all match..)
The Gear ratio (from the pumpkin tag on the differential)
The tire size (calculated by circumference, or taken from the tire size code on sizewall)
4x4 vs. 4x2
Automatic headlight feature lights. NOT, the 1998's used a different system....
4R70W transmission vs. 4R100 (e.g. E100) transmission.
Then you can call the guy(s). Look on craigslist. Some of the make house calls for another $100.
And then will come reprogram it at your house. WITH ZERO, I mean ZERO guarantees. And then you can see if you can get it to fire up... If the PATS and VIN is OK, the engine will fire and run. If the transmission code is right, you will be able to get it into 1st gear to take a test drive. If the trans, gear ratio, and tire size are correct, the speedometer will work correctly.
If the VIN is correct, it will read back properly in Forescan, or the guys IDS tool.
If the Mileage is correct, it will show up properly on your Instrument Cluster's digital display.
I don't give a lot of chance to a 1999-2002 Donation --> 1998 recipient vehicle.
I believe that 1997/98 used PATS 1 (or had no PATS).
1999-2002 used PATS 2 (or had no PATS in some models).
I am not really sure you can mix those electronics (from 1997/98 and 99-02). The wiring harnesses are different. The Automatic Lights solutions were different (OK, if neither car had that) and Ford changed the ODM II system a lot during that time.
97/98 : ODM I-ish + a lot of ODM-II things added.
99: ODM-II, but a basic state compliance positive version.
2000-2002: ODM-II, slightly updated from '99.
If you go to FordPartsGiant.com, you can put in your '98 VIN, and then run down the parts and part#'s for: IC, PCU, Keylock Cylinder, Ignition Switch, and wiring harnesses.
Then put in the VIN for the 2002, and do the same thing. If the parts do not match, or have one as the follow-on to the other (2002's # as acceptable replacement for the 98), then its probably not going to work....
But good luck. My best advise above. This audience does feel your pain.
You swapped in Engine, and PCU from 2002 5.4V to the 1998 (originally 4.6). You left out some bits that are important.
Are you using the 2002's keys and key cylinder? If no, then your keys don't match the PATS code, and the engine won't fire.
Did you swap out the instrument cluster from the 2002 to the 1998? (Which is illegal in every state unless you have the IC reprogrammed for the correct mileage.) If not, then the 1998's IC (PATS) and the Engine PATS and the PCU PATS don't match, and the engine won't fire.
The Instrument Cluster, the PCU, and the keys all have to match, as well as the 3 pieces being able to communicate with each other properly over the wiring harness.
I am NOT a true expert here, but I a bit.
PAT's wise, the 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 were the same.
PAT's wise, the 1997 and 1998 are the same with each other but different than above.
From where you are now, I would try this, no guarantees:
Get the IC from the same vehicle you got the engine and PCU, and install that. (The mileage is digital, and comes from the PCU.)
Get the Forescan utility, and Pay the $50 for the paid version (needed for PATS key stuff), and buy the Forescan recommended (higher priced) connection adapter. It costs about $50 more than cheaper choices, but it works, automatically, and well. The $50 in savings is NOT worth it, just pay the extra $100.
Forescan can reprogram the keys on the 2002 PATS (IC, Engine, PCU) and your "old" keys that match the 1998 key cylinder and external car doors.
But if the IC, PCU, and key cylinder are not talking to each other properly over the 1998 harness, Forescan cannot handle that. (Its $50 bucks... SW, $50 HW).
Then you choices are fewer and more expensive.
I would also point out it NOT just your engine turning over (your immediate problem now, you have other problems too.) When you swap the PCU out as you have, you need to have the PCU reprogrammed to for these details on your vehicle:
Mileage (technically, otherwise its odometer fraud).
Tire Size (unless the 2002 donor, and 1998 had the same size tires)
Differential Gear Ratio (unless the 2002 donor, and the 1998 had the same diff gear/axle ratio).
You also have to tell the PCU if 4x4 or 4x2,
You also have to tell the PCU about the Transmission Type (4R70 (most 4x2's), and 4R100, all 4x4's, and some 4x2's).
Because..., the PCU is also the TCU in this vehicle.
If the gear ratio and tire size and 4x2 vs. 4x4 settings are wrong, you speedometer will not work correctly. (You will get the wrong speed show on the speedmeter. Even though its an "analog" type of needle, its actually a digiital speedometer, its all in the PCU.... calculated, based on the vehicle transmission speed sensor. So, amoung other reasons, why you need to tell the PCU what transmission type).
If the 4R70 vs. 4R100 is set wrong, you will destroy your transmission.
Probably the "best" option (IMHO) is to find a 3rd-party (non-dealer) Ford shop, with full IDS subscription, e.g. call discuss to the fine points, and then have it towed there. And while you are AT IT: Because you swapped the PCU, you have OTHER THINGS you may need to have reprogrammed! (See above. So you need to make a list for the guy, Gear Ratio, tire list, 4x4vs.4x2, trans-type. They can figure it all out for you, but that is time they will charge you for, and the price will go up..... Discuss this in the price discussion before towing it there. The place you pick would be a place that specialized in Fords typically. They can use the IDS tool to reprogram and relearn all three parts together, and the keys. But the knowledge is substantially rarefied in non-dealer land, they have to cover the cost of their IDS subscription and tool, and so they are going to charge you.... a LOT. Like $500 to $750. But they will do it, and if its not impossible because the harness is not compatible, they will get you there.
Option2: Same as above, except using the dealer. A lot of dealers might not touch it. Particularly because of the 1998 wiring harness + 2002 stuff. But if you can find one that can, there is absolutely no way they are going to give you a guarantee on success, or the work. And the bill will be double. So about $1000 I'd say. But since they cannot be sure (and neither can you), that everything is good mechanically on all the work you did (because you can't get the PCU to turnover the engine because of PATS...) they are going to be very leery. And most of them won't take the job.
Option3: The cheepest route, no gurantees. You can find guys that have IDS, and will do reprogramming. Its always a side-hussle with them. (They often use boot-leg IDS units (some of them are quite good, and some not so much. All copies from China.) And usually counterfieted IDS software. (Lots of variation there as well.) If you have the 2002 IC installed, the 2002 PCU installed, the 1998 keys ready....
The VIN for the vehicle. (Use the 1998's..., the original VIN, you are paying to get then to all match..)
The Gear ratio (from the pumpkin tag on the differential)
The tire size (calculated by circumference, or taken from the tire size code on sizewall)
4x4 vs. 4x2
Automatic headlight feature lights. NOT, the 1998's used a different system....
4R70W transmission vs. 4R100 (e.g. E100) transmission.
Then you can call the guy(s). Look on craigslist. Some of the make house calls for another $100.
And then will come reprogram it at your house. WITH ZERO, I mean ZERO guarantees. And then you can see if you can get it to fire up... If the PATS and VIN is OK, the engine will fire and run. If the transmission code is right, you will be able to get it into 1st gear to take a test drive. If the trans, gear ratio, and tire size are correct, the speedometer will work correctly.
If the VIN is correct, it will read back properly in Forescan, or the guys IDS tool.
If the Mileage is correct, it will show up properly on your Instrument Cluster's digital display.
I don't give a lot of chance to a 1999-2002 Donation --> 1998 recipient vehicle.
I believe that 1997/98 used PATS 1 (or had no PATS).
1999-2002 used PATS 2 (or had no PATS in some models).
I am not really sure you can mix those electronics (from 1997/98 and 99-02). The wiring harnesses are different. The Automatic Lights solutions were different (OK, if neither car had that) and Ford changed the ODM II system a lot during that time.
97/98 : ODM I-ish + a lot of ODM-II things added.
99: ODM-II, but a basic state compliance positive version.
2000-2002: ODM-II, slightly updated from '99.
If you go to FordPartsGiant.com, you can put in your '98 VIN, and then run down the parts and part#'s for: IC, PCU, Keylock Cylinder, Ignition Switch, and wiring harnesses.
Then put in the VIN for the 2002, and do the same thing. If the parts do not match, or have one as the follow-on to the other (2002's # as acceptable replacement for the 98), then its probably not going to work....
But good luck. My best advise above. This audience does feel your pain.
Two things. This is probably one of the most well written and detailed post's I've read since I've been a member here. Kudo's to ya MG!!
I'm glad I'm to old to be doing this stuff anymore. Gone are the days when a engine swap could be done in under 4 hours with a few tools. Now you need a 'putor and an programmer. Not nearly as much fun as it use to be.
Billme
Full Access Members
Good response Mesaguy!
I would rather see more like this with real people, but it seems folks are less responsive in here.. What is irritating is a lot don’t even come back to state what they found, and how they fixed a problem to share with others..
I think the forum administration should at least consider getting AI to conform and compile the information already here.. Its inevitable anyway..
I would rather see more like this with real people, but it seems folks are less responsive in here.. What is irritating is a lot don’t even come back to state what they found, and how they fixed a problem to share with others..
I think the forum administration should at least consider getting AI to conform and compile the information already here.. Its inevitable anyway..
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