Torsion bar & shocks info help

[KyOatey]

Hi guys first time poster here. I'm hoping some of the guys with experience, such as Expeditionary, can help me decide which way to go here.

First, the questions:
How stiff are the 7700 torsion bars vs the standard torsion bars?

Once I upgrade to stiffer torsion bars, do I still need to use the coilover shocks (Strutmasters), or can I use something else, like a Bilstein?

Background detalis:
I have a 1998 Eddie Bauer 4x4 that I have replace the air suspension with Strutmasters stuff. The front is too soft and nosedives and wallows all over the place on turns. After reading on here about the softer torsion bars of the air suspension, I know I need to upgrade to stiffer torsion bars. I am leaning towards getting the 7700's. I generally like a stiff ride, but don't want a buckboard. I am also wondering, once I get stiffer bars are the coil springs still needed, or is that something I can change to adjust the ride quality? I want a tight but smooth ride that handles well. I like a good off-road suspension, but realistically, 99% of my driving is on city streets and highways.

Additional question (opinions):
Which drives better, a higher spring rate (stiffer) and medium shocks, or a softer (standard) spring and firmer shocks?

 

[TRTLSLO]

7700 bars are STIFF! They ride like my friends, unloaded, f350 SD. I replaced my worn out stock bars with them and wished I would have gotten the standard ones. Once you replace the air-ride bars, you can use standard type shocks up front. You will have to buy longer than stock shocks tho, as the air ride mounts are higher. (2" IIRC). Or you can weld new shock mounts in the stock location. Stiff springs + soft shocks is a no-no. It overworks the shocks and causes premature failure. I'd go with stock bars and firmer shocks (probably bilstein if I were to do it again)

 

[KyOatey]

Thanks

I saw your post in the nick of time. I had just ordered the 7700 bars five minutes earlier. Luckily it was soon enough for me to cancel them and order the standard bars. I think you're right - standard bars and firm shocks should be the best combination (unless I really wanted to lift it). By the way, if you happen to find a part number for the longer Bilsteins that fit, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[tonydiv]

Check out the Rancho RS9000 shocks. They make them in a size for trucks with a suspension lift. These things are 9 way adjustable, so you can dial in the type of ride that you are looking for.

 

[jacks3am]

You can use any shock you want to as long as you order it with a 4 inch lift

 

[KyOatey]

Jacks3am - Are you saying the shock mounts are 4" longer on the air ride Expedition (1st gen)?? TRTLSLO seems to think they are 2" longer.

I am not lifting my Expedition, though I will probably set the bars so the front is close to level.

I have liked Bilstein on other vehicles and it's what I have on the rear, so that's what I'd probably go with. If anyone has a good part number for either the B6, 4600 or 5100, I'd sure appreciate it.

 

[KyOatey]

Tasca doesn't have torsion bars

Well, it turns out Tasca Parts can't get the torsion bars any more (even though they appear on the website). Looks like my best option is going to be finding the standard torsion bars at an auto salvage place.

I'm still wondering how much further apart the shock mounts are on the air-ride models vs the standard suspension models. I may just have to measure the distance and call Bilstein to see which 5100 fits. If anyone has helpful info, I'd sure appreciate it.

 

[tonydiv]

Don't worry about getting shocks that are exactly right length. Shocks generally have nearly twice the travel length that the suspension does. As long as the shock doesn't bottom (or top) out, you're fine.

I still recommend the adjustable Rancho 9000.

 

[jacks3am]

Yea I went through the air ride delima before and 4 inch lift is what you need. Those rancho RS9000's are great shocks and I believe ranch makes a 4 inch lift for gen 1 expys so I believe you can order them for the front only with a 4 inch lift.

 

[tonydiv]

That's what I put on mine.

 

[KyOatey]

Changeover done

I got it done today. I got some bars from an auto salvage from an Expedition with standard suspension. They were much heavier and thicker than the air-ride bars. I also got some Bilstein 5100 shocks to replace the Strutmasters spring/shock combo.

Results: Better. I attribute part of that to the Bilstein shocks. I think it's still a bit bouncy, but more stable than it was. Definitely not a stiff ride. Better control though. My mechanic leveled the frame/body. He did not make the wheel to fender gap equal front to back. Now the front is sitting 2+" higher than the rear. I like the higher, more aggressive front, but the rear looks a bit droopy now.

One potential problem is that the Bilsteins I bought were based on the previous height (2" lower) and I wonder if I'm too close to topping them out now. I guess I could go back and have my mechanic take the front down again, or (assuming the front shocks are fine) I could spend even more money and add coil spacers to the rear, which might cause me to need longer shocks on the rear. At least with the rear I could do the work myself. This is too old a vehicle to sink much more money into.

As far as the bounciness of the ride, it's somewhat better (less brake dive & body roll), but I would have liked it stiffer yet. I suppose the 7700 bars, although stiffer, might have just made the front height difference an even bigger problem. That said, I think this is a big improvement over the Strutmasters + air ride torsion bars since it is now back to the way the truck was designed.

I'm just not sure yet how I'm going to fix the lower rear height now.

 

[tonydiv]

I'm not going to say that I told you so. I will however say, I informed you thusly.

Had you installed the Rancho RS9000's you could have dialed them in to the exact stiffness that you prefer. Live and learn.

You should measure to see how much shock rod is exposed when it is sitting still and compare it to the shock when it is fully extended. You really do want it to be somewhere in the middle of its travel.

 

[KyOatey]

Ranchos

I've avoided saying this so far, but several years ago I tried a set of Ranchos on a Ford Explorer and they were so bad that they rode worse than the worn-out shocks I was replacing. I switched to Bilstein and the difference was night and day. I swore I would never buy Ranchos again, and no matter how happy you are with yours, I will always go with something else. Yours may not be crap, but they sell plenty of it.

That said, I think the bigger issue is the springiness of the torsion bars.
I drove the Expedition almost two hours last night in wet, snowy weather (to pick someone up at the airport) and overall, it felt much better - more stable, more firmly planted. Bumps that used to toss it around were complete non-events. I just generally like a firm ride. I keep comparing it with our 2500 Suburban and it is certainly more floaty. The shocks dampen it down, but I think with stiffer springs (bars) it would have had less bounce to dampen. I can live with it for now. I just need to decide whether to lower the front, or raise the back. Either way, while I'm deciding I'll need to figure out how to adjust my headlights.

 

[tonydiv]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the Rancho RS5000 (their entry level shock) is junk. But you can't condemn an entire product line because their cheapest product is junk. (ie. "I would never buy a Ford GT because the Fiesta is a piece of crap")

What I can tell you from reading your posts, is that you are never going to be happy with an off the shelf, non-adjustable shock.

 

[KyOatey]

So, to wrap this up for the benefit of readers looking for information, I decided to keep it leveled, and just adjust the headlights. I'm getting used to the look and feel. I may eventually add an inch or two to the rear, but I'll need to buy longer shocks to do it.

My opinion: The torsion bar swap with good, firm shocks is a great way to go, and I would recommend it over a coilover system like the Strutmasters kit. The standard torsion bars are much heavier than the air ride bars. Personally, I think I would have preferred the 7700 bars but I tend to like a stiff, 3/4 ton type ride. Even so, the combination of the standard bars and Bilstein 5100's gives a better feeling of control and less brake dive than I had before. I also put on new sway bar connectors in the process of doing all this which, along with the better shocks, reduced body roll.

I think the strutmasters' problem, for me, may have been balancing which suspension part was carrying the majority of the load - whether it was the coils or the bars. If the bars take more of the initial load (the first part of the movement) it may feel quite bouncy up to the point where the coils come into play - just a theory though. Also, the strutmasters dampers are weak and allow for a lot of continued bouncing motion in the suspension rather than settling the bounce down quickly.

I hope this helps anyone who is looking for a similar solution.