Transmission Shudder after Transmission Service at Dealer

[rjdelp7]

Noting about this sounds right. Mercon V, is synthetic and used in specific trans. Mercon LV(low viscosity) and Mercon SP(friction modifier, anti shudder) are to, for specific requirements. I don't think 7 qts comes out with a pan drop. Its more like 5 or 6. My guess the quick lane jackwagon, put the wrong fluid and possibly overfilled it. The dealer doesn't want to 'eat it' with a redo. Now any future problems will be on them. Motorcycles with a 'wet clutch' can shudder if wrong oil/non motorcycle/friction modifier is used.

 

[Kenomni]

By the sound of it, I would not be surprise if it turns out to be, coincidentally, a spark plug coil going bad. It takes awhile before a code is latched. Keep us posted.

 

[762mm]

So, since my 2007 with 225,000 miles is not experiencing any transmission issues, I might do well to not change the fluid. Is this correct?

It's somewhat of a gamble if you do. If the transmission is already damaged internally (worn friction plates), it will definitely hurt it. If it's in good shape still, the new fluid will help to keep it this way.

Hard to tell, really... but you may want to hold on to that old fluid if you do change it, just in case it needs to go back into the tranny. Here's the logic behind it:

 

[762mm]

I don't think 7 qts comes out with a pan drop. Its more like 5 or 6. My guess the quick lane jackwagon, put the wrong fluid and possibly overfilled it. The dealer doesn't want to 'eat it' with a redo. Now any future problems will be on them. Motorcycles with a 'wet clutch' can shudder if wrong oil/non motorcycle/friction modifier is used.

Indeed, 6 quarts come out with a pan drop, but 7.5 quarts go in before you reach a proper level. This was my experience when I did mine and is also mentioned by some YouTubers who changed their 6R80 fluid.


Weird... or what?

(interesting part regarding volume of fluid at 14:05 mark)

 

[WiscoGus]

For those following along, I used my BT OBD adapter with Torque Pro and there were zero misfires logged for a 60min drive cycle. Guess I just gotta wait until Tuesday and see if they find a misfire or not

 

[rjdelp7]

Indeed, 6 quarts come out with a pan drop, but 7.5 quarts go in before you reach a proper level. This was my experience when I did mine and is also mentioned by some YouTubers who changed their 6R80 fluid.


Weird... or what?

(interesting part regarding volume of fluid at 14:05 mark)

I watched the video of the 6r80 service. The guy claims its was serviced at 30K. He drained 5 3/4 qts. He filled it with over 7(multiple tries, engine running, hand burning.) That tells me the first mechanic under filled it, the first time. He drove it 100K, 1qt low. How stupid is it, not havIng a proper dip stick and fill tube?

 

[762mm]

I watched the video of the 6r80 service. The guy claims its was serviced at 30K. He drained 5 3/4 qts. He filled it with over 7(multiple tries, engine running, hand burning.) That tells me the first mechanic under filled it, the first time. He drove it 100K, 1qt low. How stupid is it, not havIng a proper dip stick and fill tube?

Agreed. Especially since you risk 3rd degree burns if you want to check your actual fluid level and condition.

I've done my fluid and filter change recently at 132,000 miles. My Expedition is an ex-cop car and I'm pretty sure the last ones to fill the trans were the guys at the Ford plant assembly line in 2014. Still, only a little less than 6 quarts came out and 7.5 went back in when I did the pan drop. According to my online searches, this is "typical" of the 6R80.

Perhaps the fluid loses volume as it ages and its' magical Motorcraft LV-exclusive properties wear out? The other possibility is that some of it leaks into the transfer case through a busted seal... BUT... I did the transfer case fluid change too on the same day and didn't see more than 1.5 - 2 quarts in there total (old fluid), which is the right amount.


As I said, there's some weird crap going on with the fluid volume. Perhaps Ford under fills them at the factory to save $5 on ATF, just like they saved $3 by deleting the damn dipsticks!

 

[BlackCoffee]

I think you are overly focused on the fluid type. I just got through a rebuild on my 2003 and used Mercon LV. It is backward compatible. The replacement amount also depends on how much drains out from behind the valve body. I think Ford ended torque converter drain plugs around 2001. You will have residual fluid in the converter, oil cooler, and behind the valve body. The symptom you described, shutter when attempting to downshift from overdrive to accelerate would be release of the overdrive band. It is hard to believe an fluid change would lead to that problem. The piston would have to be sticking against the spring. It is a pretty sturdy spring, unless it broke, this doesn't correlate. Low fluid levels, or a pressure problems, would most likely manifest in not going in to OD or dropping out.
Don't rule out another unrelated engine problem, they do occur and sometimes we get so focused on trying to tie it to the last repair, we ignore the other indicators.

 

[BlackCoffee]

Also, changing fluid on an old and beat up transmission can wreck havoc on it shifting correctly, if the clutch plates are worn. The old fluid helps worn plates to engage because of all the contamination in it, whereas new fluid doesn't. This is why some guys will keep their old fluid, just in case they need to put it back in. If that is the case though, it means your tranny was already on its way out.

So, since my 2007 with 225,000 miles is not experiencing any transmission issues, I might do well to not change the fluid. Is this correct?

I have heard the theory that old fluid is better for old transmissions. Don't believe it! Think about the logic. The argument is that contamination is helping worn clutch plate to better engage. That means all that particulate matter is getting through the filters (multiple) which means your filters are breaking down. They are running over all the valves in the valve body and destroying the seals. Finally, the particles that increase friction on the plates are causing the pump gears to wear. As the clearances move up, fluid pressure goes down.

I would change the fluid, maybe even get a flush. Most people that claim a fluid change at high mileage caused the problem, already had damage and the transmission was on the way out. They probably had all the indications, that's why the changed the fluid, and then blamed the failure on the fluid. If it is running well, then change the fluid and don't worry. I don't buy the argument that bad fluid makes a good transmission. Rebuilt my 4R70W at 250K.

 

[762mm]

You are right, keeping old fluid is not a way to make a transmission last in the long term. It is simply a way of making it run a little longer before the inevitable rebuild, IF it already has a problem.

Another way one could go about it is to change the fluid for new and add something like the Lucas slip stop to make the ATF thicker and more "grippy" inside the trans, I guess. It could potentially make it last a little longer than option #1 above.

I've had 3 rebuilds of the garbage 5RE55 trans on my old Explorer throughout its lifetime, so don't get me started on what kind of a b**ch that is, lol! (at $3k a pop!)

 

[Alex Lopez]

This is what cylinder 4 misfire at 45mph that resembles transmission shudder looks like on torque with bluetooth obd2. will not throw a code unless you let it go for a while and then it starts bucking at 45. you will see the count go up as the events occur. so if you are experiencing the transmission event and you are getting zero misfires then it is not going to be coils. there are several results per cylinder so look at all the data before concluding that none of the cylinders are misfiring...

 

[WiscoGus]

Alex thank you for the insight! My Torque Pro app showed zero misfires on any cylinder.

@BlackCoffee the thing I keep getting hung up on with the fluid is mixing 2 different types. All the literature online that Motorcraft publishes shows that LV and SP are incompatible. Even on their transmission fluid chart they publish shows that SP is what is needed for that year/model trans. I would imagine everything would be okay if they used all of one or the other. But when Motorcraft publishes info on their website that is easy to find, it makes it difficult for a customer to trust their dealer if their dealer is saying something else or appears to be misinformed

 

[Dustin Gebhardt]

Here is my Blackstone report on my 2007 with 253000 miles currently on it. I bought her with 211,000 miles in April 2016. At that time, shifting through the gears was jerky and slow to engage. Based upon the initial oil report, I feel that she still had the factory fill. I went through a series of fluid changes. I can't recall what fluid type is shown at 216k and 233k (either Motorcraft SP or SP or Valvoline MaxLife ATF), but I know that I used Valvoline MaxLife ATF when I refilled her at 233k and 253k. Shifting immediately improved after the first two changes, other than the 1-2 shift being a little severe (which I hear is normal). Since those first couple of fluid changes, I haven't noticed much improvement, but I was simply trying to get the wear meatls down to a more reasonable range. I'm at that point (IMO), and I will probably keep a 30k change interval going forward, and using the Valvoline ATF.

View media item 6956

 

[pitdexion]

If you want to see real time obd2 testing results, you need a scan tool that offers test mode $06. Very useful for Ford misfires.

 

[WiscoGus]

Latest update, the vehicle is at Ford for a second day. As per the service writer yesterday the technician still "has not found out whats wrong". Which likely means that they didnt get to it when they said that they would.

On the bright side, I get a brand new Ranger crew cab 4x4 as a loaner, so that's cool.

 

[Jon1985]

Is this the first time the transmission fluid ever been changed ? Before I got my 2010 expedition I had a 2002 explorer I was the second owner it had the original transmission fluid I had a ford dealership flush it out and put new fluid and filter in . That’s pretty my destroy my transmission I had to get a new one because the original owner never had it serviced. Luckily I have the service Records for my expedition it was always serviced at the dealership and was taken care of .

 

[WiscoGus]

Trans fluid had been changed at least twice before I owned it. But I've owned it from 150k to 219k and had not had it done.

Ford dealer called me finally and said that it wasnt a misfire, but a failed torque converter... ugh. So now I guess I've got to figure out what my options are.

I can buy some Mercon SP myself and exchange it again, or put some friction modifier in the fluid.

 

[richs fishes]

Trans fluid had been changed at least twice before I owned it. But I've owned it from 150k to 219k and had not had it done.

Ford dealer called me finally and said that it wasnt a misfire, but a failed torque converter... ugh. So now I guess I've got to figure out what my options are.

I can buy some Mercon SP myself and exchange it again, or put some friction modifier in the fluid.

Have you checked the level yourself yet to see if its possibly under-filled?

 

[WiscoGus]

Thats on my list of things to do this weekend. Dealership claims that they have checked the fluid level 3 times and it is in fact full. Its rather unfortunate because there was one guy at the Quick Lane who wanted to actually put the right fluid in. However, he kept getting shut down by the Service Dept.

They said that replacing the torque converter would be $2400, but we should authorize $700 in labor to have them inspect the inside of the trans. The total cost of that repair would be $3500.

I spoke to a lawyer and he would send a letter to the dealer, but it would be $250 to have him do that. I could spend less than that and have the correct fluid put back in by another dealer/shop. Not sure its worth the gamble of continuing to try to fight it with the dealership.

 

[rjdelp7]

Drive it a while and have another shop look at it. $3500 is pretty high. A torque converter is only $250-300 part. A used transmission is around $500-1000. R+R is around 2-3 hours, @ $150/hr. Does it shudder when you are slowing down(foot off the gas)? That is a bad TC. A shudder is a loss of fluid pressure and could be a misdiagnosed bad TC. There also would be black stuff/specks of clutch in the fluid, from clutches locking up. I have heard of a product called Dr. Tranny shudder fix.