2006 5.4 3v White / Blue smoke on startup after lots of repair, but only 100k miles.

[Fidder]

Hey all, I am hoping anyone can help me out here. I think I know what is going on but could use confirmation.

About a month ago I had a spark plug issue in cylinder 8. the plug blew out due to some work another mechanic did before. I then had a new mechanic come try and fix the issue, low and behold he pushed parts of the plug into the cylinder which led to removing the head to get the parts out. Before I knew upon replacing the rest of the plugs he had to pull the other head also.

After repairing the issue and putting the heads back on the truck smoke like crazy and idled rather rough, it had appeared that it was burning oil and quantifier very quickly. and it appeared that the antifreeze was getting into the cylinders. In the space of driving no more than 75 miles in 4 days or less I burned through a quart of oil and the antifreeze in the overfill container almost emptied. We also noticed under the oil cap that there was that white pudding style of goo.

He figured it had to have been a head gasket failure so He took it apart again and replaced the head gasket for a second time with a fell-pro head gasket instead of a cheap amazon one. He also saw a bunch of carbon on the valves of the number 8 cylinder, so he replaced the valve guide seals, inspected and lapped the valves in the cylinder alone. to my knowledge he did not test any of the rest of the valve's because with only 100k miles he figures there is no way there are issues with them.

So now it back together again and there is still major white smoke pouring out in the same fashion. I am not sure if it is still burning up antifreeze becasue that level has gone down just a little bit but seems to be holding steady. I have however gone through 2and half warts of oil in 6 days 125 miles. It does however run much better now, and it has not thrown any codes in the 6 days.

I don't know what to do now and could use some advice.

I am pretty mechanically inclined and don't have much faith in my mechanics anymore, so I am thinking about pulling the heads another time and taking them down to a machine shop to be rebuilt completely.

the mechanic keeps telling me that with only 100k miles the valves should not be any issue.

Would love to know your thoughts and advice you have. I am thinking of tearing it apart this weekend, but would love for someone to tell me I am crazy so I don't have to.

Thanks all,

Fidder

 

[deweysmith]

Did you replace both head gaskets after removing them? With a cheap amazon gasket? Your post read like you only did one… It's easy for a machine shop to test the runout on the heads and make sure they aren't warped, I would do that before I have them machined, it's doubtful they are damaged.

 

[Fidder]

Yeah both head gaskets were replaced, sorry to not make that clear. I think I am about to head to auto zone to rent their block tester to see if I can tell if combustion gasses are getting into the coolant system.

 

[1955moose]

It sounds like you've got 2 issues. 1, the burning of oil is valve guide seals. 2, you somehow do have head gaskets leaking. Unfortunately it's teardown time, I would do a compression/leak down test to verify rings, or valve guide seals. Another issue would be he cracked the plastic intake manifold, or screwed up their gaskets. Your opening tag line says blue smoke on startup, that's a sign of oil making its way past the valve guide seals into combustion chamber. The other possible scenario is worn valve guides, causing same thing oil trying to fire with gasoline, that's where blue smoke comes in. Bad rings would smoke all the time not just startup. Your idea of using fluid to check for combustion in coolant system is a good idea. Keep in touch!

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[Fidder]

It sounds like you've got 2 issues. 1, the burning of oil is valve guide seals. 2, you somehow do have head gaskets leaking. Unfortunately it's teardown time, I would do a compression/leak down test to verify rings, or valve guide seals. Another issue would be he cracked the plastic intake manifold, or screwed up their gaskets. Your opening tag line says blue smoke on startup, that's a sign of oil making its way past the valve guide seals into combustion chamber. The other possible scenario is worn valve guides, causing same thing oil trying to fire with gasoline, that's where blue smoke comes in. Bad rings would smoke all the time not just startup. Your idea of using fluid to check for combustion in coolant system is a good idea. Keep in touch!

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Thanks Moose, I did do the block leakage test and did not find any sign of combustion gases in the coolant. I think I am set to start the tear down tomorrow once I can get it to a heated Garage tomorrow. I am planning on doing a full compression test and leak-down test before I get started to make sure before I commit.

and yes, it smokes when you first start it but once it clears out which takes probably 1/8th of a mile or less it no longer smokes. It will however shoot a small bluish white cloud out upon acceleration after idling at a stop light for a short length of time but it goes away almost immediately.

Your comment about the manifold is interesting because the second time he had it apart, he did kept telling me that there was oil in the manifold but he had no idea how it was getting in there. I don't know what to you with that as of yet.

Thanks for your help.

 

[1955moose]

Blue gray smoke is an indication of failed piston rings, or valve guide seals. Blue white smoke is coolant related, head gaskets, cracked block, etc. Coolant is making its way into combustion chamber, and eventually crankcase I feel the smokes going to get worse as time goes on. As far as oil in intake, replace pcv valve, and hose, also the ccv canister control valve. Basically your not getting ventilation for your motor, and oil backs up into intake manifold.

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[rjdelp7]

Find a new mechanic. Heads do not come off, for a plug issue repairs. They make special tools for the job and they work.

 

[1955moose]

I agree with RJ, your guy is a bonehead! If he can't do a thread repair properly, god knows he has no business wrenching on your Suv! He could of put the gaskets on not lining up everything, or torque it improper. You need to find a technician, not a parts changer. These vehicles aren't old flat head motors, that a monkey could repair. The modular motors are very precise, and needs a quality person digging into it.

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[commanderkeen23]

I had a cracked Block in the past. When the engine been cold - the oil was dripping into the exhaust manifold.

There was no oil in the cylinder and also at the plugs...

Good luck

 

[Fidder]

Hey all, thanks for the posts. I agree that I made a huge mistake with using this mechanic.

I got into it tonight and in the process of pulling the spark plugs so I could do a compression I pulled an oil soaked plug out the 8th cylinder. This is the one that he was working on. I am thinking now that the head might be cracked at the well or the head gasket could be bad right there letting the oil in on the plug .

Oh what fun. Lol

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[1955moose]

Like the window sticker on the Suv said leaving the Gym this afternoon said, you can't fix stupid! Sorry buddy.

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[Fidder]

Like the window sticker on the Suv said leaving the Gym this afternoon said, you can't fix stupid! Sorry buddy.

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No kidding...

I pulled the heads off this past weekend and found a handful of bolts that were not tight, The front cover bolt under the water pump was free spinning. Hard to believe it...

When I pulled the heads it does look like the head gasket on the drivers side did not seal or something. When I pulled the passenger side off you could see parts of the gasket stuck to the head and the block. That was not the case however for the driver side. the driver side is the one that had all the work done to it previously. my compression tests did show a loss of compression in one the cylinders but the wet and dry test on that cylinder showed a similar increase from dry to wet so I believe the compression loss is due to valve or head gasket issues there. Also everything looks fine inside that cylinder so I am not thinking it is a ring issue.

Anyway, I am sending the heads out today to have them rebuilt, we'll see how it goes.

I have another question in relation to the PCV valve. I know that there was pressure pushing oil into the intake manifold which is signs of a bad PCV valve. I also know that those are only replaceable by changing the valve covers. So, what I am wondering is it is possible that those are truly bad or is it possible that they just could not fully deal with the extra pressure created by the head gasket. I am really just debating if I should buy news ones or clean up the old ones. They are not all that expensive however, my costs keep climbing. lol

 

[1955moose]

Well their you go! A crappy repair job by guys that should not have a wrench or ratchet in their hands. Man to leave pieces of old gasket material, and to half ass torque head bolts. Never ceases to amaze me the hacks that are allowed to hang a repair sign outside their building. Personally if it was me I'd pull the pan, and install a fresh set of piston rings, along with a quality hone of cylinders. By having machine shop re work heads, your going to put a strain on the old rings, which are questionable at best. Let us know which way you go, and how it turns out.

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[stamp11127]

Were the headbolts loose?

Depending on how much the heads get shaved, if they do, you may need to get a "head saver gasket" to bring the installed height back into spec. Otherwise the crank to cam timing would be off slightly.

 

[Fidder]

Were the headbolts loose?

Depending on how much the heads get shaved, if they do, you may need to get a "head saver gasket" to bring the installed height back into spec. Otherwise the crank to cam timing would be off slightly.

Thanks for the advice, I am waiting to get the heads back so I can see what was done before I purchase the new head gaskets.

Do you or anyone by chance have an recommendation on which head gaskets to purchase?

 

[1955moose]

Fel pro head savers are probably your best bet. As stamp stated it depends if your machine shop shaves off much from mating surface. Be sure to ask them what the amount they are surfacing, and if you'll need it when done. The purpose of machining the head surface is to remove any distortion of surface. The flatter the better. Any warpage, and you'll never get a good seal.

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[blue oval guy]

My guess on the coolant has got to be that composite intake manifold either cracked somewhere or gaskets have failed, it is very common on all Triton 2 and 3 valve motors. What is the condition of the cylinder walls? If your machine shop already did guides it has to be oil control rings on the pistons, I feel for you..
Please keep us posted on your findings.

 

[Fidder]

I did get the news back about the heads. I will be picking them up soon. It looks like they had to be shaved 3/1000 off to make it flat along with dried out valve guide seals, bad lifters and the number 8 cylinder spark plug hole needed to be helicoiled. There was also a ton of carbon buildup around cylinder 7 and 8 so they. I imagine, and they are saying that these these issues along with the head not being spotless when it was put back on is the reason that it was having the issues. At least I am hoping that is the case.

There are new gaskets all around and no sign of breaking or cracking on the intake manifold so I am not looking to replace that at the time being.

I am going to have them do another pass however on the heads because when I went yesterday to look at them the young employee that pulled them off the shelf scratched the bottom of the head. One of the scratches in particular can be felt with a fingernail which from what I have read is a no no.

Here is to hoping that this solves the issue.

 

[Fidder]

I think I am on the road to mending. We just put the heads back on after having them redone and making sure I could not feel anything at all on any part of either mating surface and then following AllData's torque sequence exactly. After we got the heads on we did a leak down test on all 8 cylinders with the roller followers out so all of the valves were sealed and the the chambers ranged from 3% to 10% across the board. Cyllinders 1-6 all averaged at 5% and 7 and 8 were both at 10%. In the firing order 7 and 8 don't fire back to back so over all I am pretty confident that all of our issues are pretty much taken care of.

Of course I guess I won't know for sure until we start the thing but with the results listed above I don't know how we could have a gasket leak or valves leaking. it seems to be pretty good now.

If you know something I don't know please share.

Thanks again for all of the advice

 

[stamp11127]

Did you get the psi reading for each cylinder?