Need help diagnosing vct timing issues

[Keepinitoldskool]

Background info:
5.4 with startup rattle, no power above 3500rpm
Replaced all 8 plugs with oe spec Motorcraft. Replaced clogged air filter.. replaced fuel filter both Motorcraft. Ran under load for fuel pressure test, ok. Replaced timing chain, tensioners, guides, phasers, solenoids with oe Ford parts. Replaced oil pump with Melling 340hv. Startup rattle is gone. Engine runs perfect until 3500. Discovered driver's side cat is clogged. Unclogged it, damaging b2s2 in the process. Engine runs awesome at all rpms until hot, bank 2 retarded. Code for b2s2 lean.
Pulled LH cover, cleaned solenoid. Same. Replaced oil and filter. Same. At low speed maneuvers when hot vct bank 1 goes 60° advance and bank 2 60° retard. Swapped cam sensors left to right. Same. What the hell why does one bank go advanced and the other retard at the same time? And only when hot????

 

[07navi]

Background info:
5.4 with startup rattle, no power above 3500rpm
Replaced all 8 plugs with oe spec Motorcraft. Replaced clogged air filter.. replaced fuel filter both Motorcraft. Ran under load for fuel pressure test, ok. Replaced timing chain, tensioners, guides, phasers, solenoids with oe Ford parts. Replaced oil pump with Melling 340hv. Startup rattle is gone. Engine runs perfect until 3500. Discovered driver's side cat is clogged. Unclogged it, damaging b2s2 in the process. Engine runs awesome at all rpms until hot, bank 2 retarded. Code for b2s2 lean.
Pulled LH cover, cleaned solenoid. Same. Replaced oil and filter. Same. At low speed maneuvers when hot vct bank 1 goes 60° advance and bank 2 60° retard. Swapped cam sensors left to right. Same. What the hell why does one bank go advanced and the other retard at the same time? And only when hot????

It sounds like one of the new phasers is not working right.

 

[JExpedition07]

Do you have pictures of your engine after the phasers were installed and you did the timing procedure where we can see where the tines on the phasers are facing? I’m stumped. What is the degrees of advance @ resting position reading on both? I believe at rest it should be full advance. At WOT it should be at full retard on both banks. As you increase in the revs do both retard? Is one side staying in advance? 60 degrees of retard at low speed does not seem right either, like I said that is wide open throttle position. Trying to get a feel of which bank is screwing you here.

 

[07navi]

What to you mean by low speed maneuvers ? So phasers both start out fully advanced? Don't forget heat changes your oil pressure so maybe that's part of it. Both phasers should be the same but are you sure they are on right?

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

Thank you for your replies.
Yes I have pics of the installation. Driver's side marks on the L and passenger side on the R.
Low speed maneuvers I mean coming to a stop, parking, reversing. It's only when it gets hot and coming to a stop.

I'm going to attach a picture of the timing going off while stopped.

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

Don't know why that's so blurry. The graphs are:
Bank 1 vct duty cycle
Bank 2 vct duty cycle
Bank 1 vct error
Bank 2 vct error
Bank 1 vct advance
Bank 2 vct advance
Throttle position.
Everything operates normally until it decides to lose its mind.

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

 

[Plati]

How does one "unclog a cat"?

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

Hammer and prybars, to get it running until magnaflow ships the new one

 

[Plati]

Could that be part of your issues? My understanding is the CAT heats up and becomes a little chemical reaction factory. If its gutted and doesnt it do what is sposed to do then sensors are going to detect that and report bad numbers to the ECU. Then the ECU might start doing all kinds of wrong things to get the engine running right. Garbage In Garbage Out. Classic computer paradigm. I'm on the margins of understanding this so I'm just throwing it out there. I dunno. Just a thought.

 

[07navi]

I would wait until you get the cat issues taken care of before everyone starts speculating on everything here.

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

I'd rather get the engine running 100% first because I'm pretty sure that is why the cat melted in the first place. I'm gonna put a new 02 on there and start recording more PIDs until I find what is signaling these cams to retard at idle

 

[07navi]

I'd rather get the engine running 100% first because I'm pretty sure that is why the cat melted in the first place. I'm gonna put a new 02 on there and start recording more PIDs until I find what is signaling these cams to retard at idle

I would address the cat problems first. I doubt if one phaser advancing wrong is going to affect them for a long time if at all. People are putting those stupid wedges in them to lock them up solid and they have no effect on the cats.

 

[max78]

The rear o2 sensors do not adjust the computer. the only thing a gutted cat will do is fail emissions due to CEL, its a go/no-go gauge.

Your computer relies on the front O2 sensors to make adjustments.

really odd about your timing going out of whack. Comparing it to my phasers your look to be at a different angle. Your matches what I have seen in the youtube videos and others though, so I have no idea. .

 

[max78]

Completely ignore my dumb post above. I didn't set the timing in that shot so of course its not going to look right.


If it runs fine until warm it sounds like there is a sensor issue somewhere. While cold it should be operating in closed loop mode ignoring the O2 sensors, only after the engine is up to temp does it switch over to open loop mode, which then rely on the O2 sensors for fuel trims. At least that how they used to operate. Monitor your O2 sensor data to see what is happening.

I would pull your Bank 2 Sensor 1 (closest to the header) and inspect it for damage, maybe something happened when you were clearing the clogged cat.

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

After some more testing and data logging, I'm convinced there is something on the driver's side that is bleeding oil pressure. After the engine runs perfectly for about 30 minutes and I come to a stop, bank 2 goes advanced and stays there until the engine is shut down or put in neutral and revved. Since I put a new melling 340hv in it I doubt oil flow is the problem, and it's only on bank 2, which supposedly is the first to get the oil flow, and bank 1 has 0 issues, and swapping cam sensors made 0 difference. I'm going to try a thicker oil to see if my theory is correct. Maf, tps, fuel pressure, upstream 02 all look correct.

 

[07navi]

After some more testing and data logging, I'm convinced there is something on the driver's side that is bleeding oil pressure. After the engine runs perfectly for about 30 minutes and I come to a stop, bank 2 goes advanced and stays there until the engine is shut down or put in neutral and revved. Since I put a new melling 340hv in it I doubt oil flow is the problem, and it's only on bank 2, which supposedly is the first to get the oil flow, and bank 1 has 0 issues, and swapping cam sensors made 0 difference. I'm going to try a thicker oil to see if my theory is correct. Maf, tps, fuel pressure, upstream 02 all look correct.

Both phasers should always retard with higher RPM'S, right? I doubt if thicker oil will do anything, and I am wondering if one of the phasers is malfunctioning.

 

[07navi]

delete

 

[Keepinitoldskool]

Bank 1 retards normally, bank 2 doesn't until enine is revved or shut down, leading me to suspect something on that side is bleeding pressure. A thicker oil is a "cheap" way to test this theory.

 

[07navi]

Bank 1 retards normally, bank 2 doesn't until enine is revved or shut down, leading me to suspect something on that side is bleeding pressure. A thicker oil is a "cheap" way to test this theory.

If it was bleeding that much pressure the passenger side wouldn't work right since it gets oil last. Try 40 weight but I don't think it will change anything. With that good oil pump in there the driver side phaser should have more chance of working right than the pass side. Let us know what the thicker oil did.