HELP!!! 05 5.4 oil pump???

[BrandonH13]

So we just bought a 2005 expedition with the 5.4 in it. We have had it about a month and a half...second vehicle so its rarely driven. Before we bought it the dealership had the timing chains, guides, arms, cam sensors replaced because it was making a noise.
Well about 2 weeks ago my wife says it died on her when she was backing up. Restarted it just fine and didn't have a problem with it. Then I drive it to work (which is 90% highway) When I start to stop at a light it just dies, shift into neutral and restart it....now its making a loud clacking sound and have to keep some gas on it so the rpms stay up. Check engine light now comes on, so I get it to work and check the codes...
P0345 - camshaft position sensor bank a circuit, bank 2
P0340 - camshaft position sensor circuit malfunction
So in my mind I am thinking its the timing stuff they just did or its the cam phasers. It will be fine when its cold and after it warms up is when you hear the clacking and the truck wanting to die. We test drove a F150 that did the same exact thing and since we were getting the 5.4 I tried to research before hand about the bad things.

So I call the dealership we just bought it from and they said it was serviced at this place and it has a 12 month 12,000 mile warranty for the timing parts. So I call the place and after about 2 weeks FINALLY get someone to call me back. We take it there and tell them to check whatever they need under their warranty but to call before they do anything else. They are like oh its probably just the connections so we will lube them up and see what happens. Well after a couple days I call and get "well it wasn't that so we are tearing into the engine to see if its the timing stuff we did". Couple days later again I call and get "well the tensioners were bad and thats the only thing we didn't replace" this is a thursday so the owner which I have been talking to tells me he wants to drive it 20-30 miles to make sure the noise isnt going to come back. Well AGAIN a couple days later I call on a tuesday for him to tell me he has taken it to the local ford shop because it still has the noise. Well he ends up calling me friday afternoon to say that ford said "its the oil pump so you need a new engine"

Sorry for the story, but my question is would the oil pump just go out like that and have the syptoms of the cam phaser or do you think it sounds like cam phasers? I never remember the oil pressure dropping or the dummy light coming on the dash, which I would think would happen if it was the oil pump.
ANY help would be great since its passed the 30 days and I really dont want to fork over another $5K for a new engine if I dont have to

 

[sgtowing]

Not sure if this helps but mine starts to run rough when its low on oil. Its never made any noise and the the gauge showed good pressure even when it was low on oil.

You might want to spend your own money and take it another ford dealer that has never seen the vehicle and see what they say.

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[BrandonH13]

Yeah I am going to call the ford dealership today when I get a chance and ask how they figured it was the oil pump or what steps they took to get there.

Where is the oil pump located on the expedition anyways? It is in the oil pan or external?

 

[BrandonH13]

Well I called the local ford dealer and they sent me the inspection sheet.

The concern was - engine warms up , engine rattles and stalls, cam phasers are new.
The correction - Inspect, bank 1 not timed correctly. Also has low oil pressure causing the cam phasers to not operate properly.

If it wasn't timid right, would that make a difference on the oil pressure? Funny how they "fixed" one thing and now the codes that I got have nothing to do with timing...so they messed it back up when they "fixed" the tensioners

 

[BrandonH13]

Talked to the tech yesterday. He said he has been the engine guy for 14 years and actually had 2 other trucks up there for the same problem the day he had mine. He said he hooked it up to the IDF or whatever computer and when we started it up, he could tell it wasnt timed right.
He said when it started to rattle, they call it the death rattle because there is pretty much nothing you can do when it gets that bad. He said that it could be the oil pump, but also when this engines get "higher" mileage on them then the heads can start to bleed off the oil. He said we could change heads, but that might not fix the problem or that he has heard of people putting heavier weight oil in them and it "helping" but not fix the problem. He said that since it doesnt have a minimum of 25 psi oil pressure, then the phasers won't work like they are suppose to.

He also said that all the timing stuff they did was also probably just a "band-aid" and wasn't the real problem to begin with.

 

[khpony]

Did you buy it from an individual or a dealer? If it was a dealer I think I'd make a run at having the dealership repair it at their cost.

 

[sgtowing]

Like I said Brandon, prepare for a lawsuit. Also, if the dealer wont fix it, run a straight 40 or 50 weight oil to help the pressure and get as many miles out of the engine as you can. It's close to summer so the cold shouldn't be to bad much longer so startups wont be as bad with a thicker oil.

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[BrandonH13]

It was a small dealer and they said since we didn't "notify" them and took it straight to the place that did all the timing stuff for them that we are "out" of their 30 day warranty. Pretty much going to have to get a lawyer, file complaints and other things to try and get them to help out.

After I have been trying to research, I hope its just debrie has gotten in the oil pan from when they changed everything out. Also I have been researching and found out that the vct's might be clogged or the lash adjuster, roller rockers might be going bad, which would make the heads bleed off pressure like the tech at ford said I would think right?

We just might take it home, have my cousin that is a diesel mechanic come over and take off the valve covers and see if we can find anything. Maybe run some seafoam through it and drop the oil pan. The wife wants to just get rid of it at this point somehow and I am starting to not blame her which is sad

 

[BrandonH13]

Sorry guess I should go more into it...

Talked to the place that did the timing and he said when they got it, it was opposite and it would rattle when it was cold and would smooth out when warm. So they opened it up to replace the phasers and noticed one of the guides was broke, which was letting the chain slap. Replaced all that and said they cleaned up the valve body and the vct sensors still had the screens so they didnt mess with them or worry about cleaning them. Drove it some and it ran fine.

So now I am wondering if since the guide was broken, if some pieces got down to the oil pan and now are trying to get sucked up and stuck on the pick up screen. He said that he put a manual oil pressure gauge on it and it was going crazy, but didnt ever drop below 12psi pressure.

 

[Richard Lewis]

Did you get it taken care of yet i have the same truck and just finished doing all the things the machenic said he did my truck runs like it just pulled up out of the lot i bet they didnt drop the oil pan and there is debri in there also i would just change out the vct selonoid if it has over 80000 on it both sides also could be losing pressure from the timing chain tensioner if they broke the seal when installing them it will lose alot of oil pressure never put heavy oil in it only 5w20 and only use motorcraft oil filter the others use a cardboard type of filter it gets into the oil passages and clogges them if you need any help let me know ive had my engine apart many times its a great engine and has lots of power just make sure the people working on it know what there doing if that machenic told you to put heavy weight oil in there that tells me he know nothing about this 5.4 modular engine

 

[BrandonH13]

No the shop still has it til we get everything situated with a lawyer. The person that said to run thicker weight oil was the tech at ford. He said he has heard of it helping the pressure. The place working on it though, did not drop the pan because he said that when they "pushed" the tensioner together it went back complete so there was no missing parts from it. He also said they "cleaned" the valve body and the vct solenoids had the screens so they didn't replace them either. He did say that when they worked on it, that the engine was clean and didn't have any sign of sludge.

Sadly they also picked it up monday from ford and he called to tell me that is was actually running fine. He drove it for 45 minutes and it heated up and ran like it should with no rough idle, dieing, or codes. It has been sitting at ford for 2 weeks, so could the computer of reset or some sensor? It was also like 60 degrees instead of the 70+ it has been, so maybe the oil didn't get upto temp? I dont think that would happen though, since it didnt matter before and would start doing everything when it even started getting warm. At this point I am stumped, but have to wait til we pay the shop to get the truck...which we are waiting on our lawyer to see if we are sueing the dealer we bought it from or what....so the waiting game continues

 

[Richard Lewis]

That really sucks but i really think now that you said its running fine now thats its the vct solonoids or 1 of them the vct is what controls your timing it controls oil pressure to you cam phazers and eather retards or advances your timing so if you put thicker oil in it you can slow down the pressure thats why ford only recomends 5w20 on the 5.4 triton engine anything thicker can and will cause problems i would have them install the vct solonoid on wichever bank your having the issue and see if it clears up the problem solonoids fail intermittenly all the time

 

[Richard Lewis]

Also unless he had the whole front of the engine off he could not check the tensioner its down to far to see it or feel it you have to pull the timing cover off wich is a job on its own

 

[Shadowless127]

Either VCT or lash adjusters. Common Modular engine problems.

 

[BrandonH13]

The shop took it apart to see if when they installed the timing chains, guide, arms, phasers if they messed something up. That is when they "realized" the tensioners were now bad and replaced both of them. They put it back together and it did the same, so that is when they took it to ford. I haven't seen, heard, or drove the truck for almost 2 months now. So I don't know if it is one side or both that are making the noise. If it shuts off like it had been, then I would want to say that both sides are messing up??? They brought it back from ford and put it inside there shop and haven't touched it since, so it still has the same 5w20 oil and everything as it had before. Come to think of it though, ford said it was timing incorrectly on bank 1, but I am sure that was after the fact that they put the tensioners on so I will have to tell them that and have them fix it before we get it back.

 

[Richard Lewis]

Ok good luck let us know what happens maybe its off a tooth truck will still run if its off a tooth when cold and run horrible when it warms up .

 

[BrandonH13]

Sorry to bring back a dead thread. We just picked the truck up today from the repair place. Seems to run better and doesn't get AS bad of the knocking sound. Still wants to die and will die after warmed up. When they took it to ford, ford said it was off timing probably by a tooth because the phasers fire one and then the other right after. I am starting to wonder if its timed right if it will run right. We can do anything til the court thing is over though so it will have to wait to see.

 

[sgtowing]

Good luck.

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[wink]

there are too things you can do replace it or work with your Ford Expedition repair mechanic. the oil pump is on the crank behind the balancer and timing chain cover

 

[cboling67]

I have a 2003 expy withn the 5.4 and when I try and start it it says low oil pressure in the message center and it will not start. I just keep bumping the starter until it finally builds oil pressure and the sending unit I guess allows the engine to start. Sometimes it takes 3 or bumps of the ignition before it will start. I think I heard it knock like once or twice. Other than that it runs great. Any advice on where to start first. I do apologize for hijacking the thread but I am new to forums.