Help! no crank, no start after a "hot soak"

[jmzrherb]

I've had my 2011 Expy limited EL for over a year now and in february we noticed it would have an intermittent no crank, no start after we've driven it around especially on a really hot day. about 1 to 2hrs later once we return to wherever it stranded me and the kids, it would start right up like nothing was wrong. however we found a new issue when we went on vacation in july. drove about three hours to destination. once we stopped for about 30 mins we decided to run to the grocery store. the truck wouldn't start. my dad came out checked the fuse box on passenger side and notice the carpet was soaked. lifted the carpet away and found tons of condensation from the ac. he blew it all out, since he felt it was from a blockage. the wetness hasn't happened again until this am i noticed it. my dad is a ford mechanic and has been scratching his head at this point. my truck will not throw any codes whatsoever. nothing comes up. my husband is a f250 diesel guy and doesn't know to much about the expys. just not sure where to go from here. saw on another thread a gentleman had the same wet floorboard issue that shorted the fuse box and in turn shorted the fuel inertia switch. that's a possibility we're going to try next. here's a list of what we've changed out not in this particular order:

new battery
new starter
new starter relay
starter and battery cables
starter selonide
new fuse box in kick panel
ignition switch
PCM

 

[FordandPolaris]

Well water and electrical never play nice so the first thing I would do is stop the water. If it is just condensation from a pipe, you might need to wrap it, but finding and reaching it can be tricky. If there is a leak in the body paneling or an air vent, or the windshield seal, then you should see water down there after rain. Did it rain in your region when this all happened?

 

[jmzrherb]

it's been dry here for a couple days. we had it looked at again yesterday and the water wasn't there then. then i noticed it this am before kid drop off. from where i can tell the water is coming from, is the insulation in front of the firewall on passenger side under the dash, if that makes sense. drivers side is dry. the first time we noticed it, everything was blown out to make sure there wasn't a blockage. and it hasn't happened again until now. i know on the older expys there was an issue with the air conditioning condensation leaking onto possibly the motor or something and it was going hay wire. ford was suppose to fix this flaw. but apparently somethings happening with ours.

 

[FordandPolaris]

Well I don't know of the A/C condensation issue with the old trucks but a very common issue on the 1st gens was that the windshield seal would fail allowing water to drip down to the GEM module and cause crazy electrical issues like my windshield wipers wiping whenever they want to. Replacing the windshield would solve the issue.

The 2nd gens and up do not have GEM's but it doesn't mean a windshield could not be leaking. If it hasn't rained though, I don't think that is it. Does your coolant or windshield washer fluid seem to be leaking/disappearing faster than it should?

 

[jmzrherb]

nope not that we've seen. i know my husband has checked that. sorry if there is limited information. i'm really bad with this stuff. but for example today it started just fine. went and sat at my sons school in carpool, with the car running and as soon as we got home and i turned it off, i tried to start the truck again and it wouldn't start and it wouldn't crank. it's like it doesn't like getting hot or something.

 

[stamp11127]

When it doesn't start:
1) will the engine spin over? If so is it normal speed?
2) any other systems not functioning when the no start happens?
3) can you hear the fuel pump pressurize the fuel system?
4) has anyone tried jumping the starter solenoid?

 

[jmzrherb]

when you say spin over, what do you mean? i'm sorry even though i'm a mechanics daughter, i don't know crap about cars. when it doesn't start the only thing i do hear is the clicking from the radio/electronics and i do believe i hear the fuel pump click on. everything acts normal, nothing blinks out of the ordinary. the only way i know it's acting up is when i go to start it nothing happens. no we have not tried jumping the starter solenoid. my dad check all of that and replace this cable harness throughout from the battery to the starter?? i believe? the wires were all crappy with duct tape and he redid them all.

 

[FordandPolaris]

when you say spin over, what do you mean? i'm sorry even though i'm a mechanics daughter, i don't know crap about cars. when it doesn't start the only thing i do hear is the clicking from the radio/electronics and i do believe i hear the fuel pump click on. everything acts normal, nothing blinks out of the ordinary. the only way i know it's acting up is when i go to start it nothing happens. no we have not tried jumping the starter solenoid. my dad check all of that and replace this cable harness throughout from the battery to the starter?? i believe? the wires were all crappy with duct tape and he redid them all.

Did you buy the car used? If the cables were taped then there might be other connection issues somewhere. I would follow the ground and power cables for redneck fixes and address them properly as well. If there is a taped wire that is breaking its connection, it could explain why the starter is not engaging but you are seeing lights and radio on, etc.

And by spinning I think Stamp means does it sound like the motor is trying to start but doesn't fire, or is the motor completely silent and not moving at all.

 

[jmzrherb]

we did buy it used. and my dad did do that. he traced every wire he was worried someone had done a home fix so he went through everything. he feels that there is a connection issue somewhere. he just hasn't been able to find it. i dunno he's looking at it soon since it's not starting again now. but yeah seeing everything normally, lights, radio. it's like if i would go to start the truck but it just won't start. everything under the hood is completely silent as far as the motor goes. the only sounds that i hear are the possible clicking of the fuel pump and the normal clicking from the nav and radio center turning on.

 

[FordandPolaris]

Have you tested voltage at the starter when it would not start to see if it was getting power? If not I would do that. If you get 0v when the key is engaged that tells me something along the way has lost connection. If you get 12v but the starter is not engaging, then I would say the starter is bad, but you already replaced that with no success so I doubt that will be the case.

Once you see the voltage at 0v, jump it at the solenoid like Stamp said and see what happens. If it starts, there is a problem with the circuit before the solenoid. If it still doesn't start, there is a problem after.

 

[jmzrherb]

it's really frustrating because it's won't show anything, no codes nothing. when i researched the other day a guy had a 2011 that had condensation on his front passenger floorboard that shorted the fuse box which shorted the fuel inertia switch. yesterday when they were looking at it,(fuel inertia switch) they said you should be able to hold it in your hand and "activate it" i dunno if that makes sense but apparently mine you couldn't get to activate. so we ordered one and are getting it put on tomorrow.

 

[jmzrherb]

i wanna say yes but not 100% sure. i'll talk with my dad when he gets here. i don't wanna discredit him as a mechanic, so i assume he has. cuz this has only done it once when he was able to look at it. never when he's driven it to work to run it. go frickin figure.

 

[FordandPolaris]

Honestly just based on what you have told me you can throw parts at it all day and it is not going to go away until we find where the water is coming from and where the break in the connection is. Keep in mind, they could be two totally unrelated issues. I would test the voltages of the systems when the issue occurs and that way you know if they are getting power or not.

I am not trying to discredit him either, just gather info to help sort through the problem. Let us know what he says and we can go from there!

 

[jmzrherb]

thats what my husband has been saying and is tired of doing. we're already at $400 in parts. i wanna get rid of it but he absolutely loves it, which i do to but i'm done with an unreliable vehicle but yeah that's how we feel as well. until the problem does it when it can be checked we're up a creek without a paddle. sucks!!! sorry if i meant you were discrediting my father. i'm just getting frustrated with him since he's always fixed everything. he's been a mechanic for over 30 years! but i just feel like he's unaware of this issue. cross my fingers he find something.

 

[stamp11127]

Once your dad or hubby is able and the Expy doesn't start, we need some voltage readings.
1) Battery voltage
2) Voltage at the starter solenoid(on the firewall) - big lug that connects to the battery
3) Voltage on the other bug lug on the solenoid, it connects to the starter - ignition switch on start
4) Voltage on switched side of the solenoid - little wire that comes from the ignition switch and becomes "hot" when the ignition switch is turned to start.

You should have at least 12+ volts at all points on a fully charged battery.

Don't waste your time on the inertia switch just yet. I doubt it is connected into the starting circuit. The older gens have it wired into the fuel delivery circuitry so the engine call still "spin - turn over" but not start/run.

 

[jmzrherb]

alright will try that for sure! thanks!

 

[Bedrck47]

Stamp Just sent you a PM on this

 

[stamp11127]

Roxxy1225 sent me the starting diagrams for a 2010, if they haven't made any changes to the 2011's it should be the same.
In the battery junction box the diagram shows a starter relay. Pins 3 & 5 are the high current load side of the relay. If you jump 3 to 5 the starter should spin the engine. It is rated at 30 amps so use a heavy gauge wire and expect a nice spark. If the starter spins then the problem is on the control or switched side of the relay.
Also there is a starter diode in the battery junction box, that should also be checked with a meter that can test diodes.