Odd Starting Issue - Need Help!

[teddym90]

This is my first post after reading quite a lot so bear with me…

Vehicle: 2001 Expedition EB 5.4 115K auto trans

Issue: Truck will not start when I turn the key, just hear a loud clicking (updated below - new behavior).

Symptoms/Events in order of occurrence:
+ Created spark at wire harness going to Starter Relay on firewall (see “history” below for more) while it was not on the Relay.
+ Later reassembled the wiring and started the truck to hear a loud “ZAP” 4-5 seconds after it started.
+ Found I could not restart the truck & started troubleshooting/testing; the Fusible Link, Starter Relay & Starter all were in need of replacement.
+ Upon replacing these, the truck started. However, after running for about 10 seconds the starter burned out. Now the engine is loud and my hearing isn't great so I can’t 100% say whether the starter kept running or it reengaged. I was advised by a cousin that owns a shop that the re-manufactured starters tend to be problematic so I went and bought a new one.
After replacing the starter a second time I started the truck and shut it off in quick succession 2x. However, on the 3rd attempt I found the truck would not start again. I was able to jump the Starter Relay by running a wire from the lower post to the Positive terminal on the battery; I should note that when it starts it is a slow wind up and not an instant crank (only for 1-2 seconds but noticeable).
This lead me to the Ignition Switch, which tested fine but I replaced just to be sure. After reassembly the truck started up fine, and I repeated my test of shutting it off quickly. This time on the 3rd attempt I left it running and did not hear the starter running/reengaging after a few seconds. Unfortunately, after 30 seconds I stepped back thinking all was well and 5 seconds later the starter burned up again.

I had read that the less expensive starter relay I had bought can stick and burn out starters so I replaced it, only to find that after 3 quick starts now the starter is not engaged and I can only get it to start by jumping the Relay again. Not wanting to waste any more time or money (it’s been nearly 2 weeks) I thought I would post here for advice on next steps.

I believe my next area of interest is back to the ignition wiring or TRS (T-ransmission R-ange S-ensor). However, having spend the last 2 weeks reading, troubleshooting and being frustrated I feel like there may be something I’m missing. I see some sort of Anti-Theft Ignition Interrupt Relay on my wiring diagram but I cannot for the life of me find it or any information in my manual or on the internet that would lead me to it.

Thanks in advance for your advice folks!


Little more history for those interested:

The Self-inflicted injury came while in process of recharging the AC. You might ask, why the heck would you be messing with this stuff just to recharge the AC… well for those that haven’t had the pleasure, the lower AC port is on the Accumulator, which happens to be back by the firewall under a bracket, who’s bolts are under the cables for the Starter Relay. Anyway, I accidentally brushed the wire harness that goes on the starter relay against the firewall... I had pulled the negative battery cable off and away but it snuck back up and was touching the post... it's never happened to me in my 20+ years of working on cars/trucks but talk about an instant heart sinking feeling

Long story short, when I started my truck to continue with the AC recharge, the loud zap came after about 10 seconds, which was apparently the sound of the fusible link and half my starting circuit burning up.

 

[teddym90]

Little more testing and a new symptom:

Tested for power at the TRS wire harness (poles 9 & 10) and found that they were each appropriately powered with the ignition at Run & Start accordingly (9=Run / 10=Start).

After deciding I wasn't terribly comfortable removing the TRS (there is almost no room to reach in and disconnect the shift control cable) I reconnected everything and tried to crank it over, which is where my new symptom appeared.

Initially, the original click followed by no start occurred but I realized I could hear an electrical humming from under the dash area. I moved to laying on the floor with my head under the dash and tried to crank it over again but still couldn't pin point it. However, on the third try my Starter briefly engaged. On the 4th try my truck started.

I was a little shocked and to avoid burning up the starter I shut it off right away. To restart it took the same number of tries; three turns with just electrical humming, one with a brief buzz of the starter and finally the truck started. On the third round of this the starter went into hyper drive, or at least that's what it seemed like to me, as the engine started and was revved up super fast for a few seconds before I cut it off.

I'm feeling a bit out of my league but thought I would check once again for any input this group might have.

Thanks!!

 

[stamp11127]

Do you have the wiring diagram for the starting/charging circuit? If so are you able to read them?

Do you have a test light and a DVM?

 

[teddym90]

3 out of 4 aint bad right?

Do you have the wiring diagram for the starting/charging circuit? If so are you able to read them?

Do you have a test light and a DVM?

That's a Y, Y, Y & N

No DVM unfortunately.

 

[stamp11127]

Sounds as though you have multiple problems going on. I'd start with charging up the battery so that it has a full charge. I'm looking at a electrical manual for my 99 specifically the starting circuit. I would expect some changes between our years but not in this area.

The startting circuit branches off to the gem but the GEM doesn't control the starter motor. The humming you hear is most likely coming from that. Humming is also a sign of low voltage.

Since the starter has worked in the past that indicates the wiring is correct. To verify you can test the switched side of the starter relay while someone turns the key to start. The test light will light up in the start position and go off in the run.

There are two solenoids that can get stuck on, one is the starter relay the other is the solenoid on the starter. If either one is stuck in the "on" position the starter will run.

Since the fusible links blew that indicates an excessive load and/or no resistance(short). I would inspect the entire length of both red cables that go to the starter motor for corrosion and resistance. The salted roads play hell with copper wiring.

I strongly suggest getting a DVM so that you can check resistance and perform a voltage drop test on the starting circuit.

Is your starter relay a name brand?

 

[teddym90]

Sounds as though you have multiple problems going on. I'd start with charging up the battery so that it has a full charge. I'm looking at a electrical manual for my 99 specifically the starting circuit. I would expect some changes between our years but not in this area.

The startting circuit branches off to the gem but the GEM doesn't control the starter motor. The humming you hear is most likely coming from that. Humming is also a sign of low voltage.

Since the starter has worked in the past that indicates the wiring is correct. To verify you can test the switched side of the starter relay while someone turns the key to start. The test light will light up in the start position and go off in the run.

There are two solenoids that can get stuck on, one is the starter relay the other is the solenoid on the starter. If either one is stuck in the "on" position the starter will run.

Since the fusible links blew that indicates an excessive load and/or no resistance(short). I would inspect the entire length of both red cables that go to the starter motor for corrosion and resistance. The salted roads play hell with copper wiring.

I strongly suggest getting a DVM so that you can check resistance and perform a voltage drop test on the starting circuit.

Is your starter relay a name brand?

Thanks for the detailed reply!!

To recap...

I have tried 2 different Starter Relays in my truck since the first one was cooked in the initial surge (so 3 total relays); I tried 2 because I've heard these can be problematic and the cheap ones sometimes are junk from the start. The first was a base model BWD Relay for $20 from O'Rielly & the second is a BWD Select model from Advanced.

I have put in 3 Starters in my truck since the initial one was cooked. A reman Ultima Starter & a new Ultima Select from O'Rielly and finally a salvage yard starter since I was just burning up money. The reason for purchasing the new Starter (Ultima Select) was that I was convinced by a local shop owner the reman starters were garbage and I should just buy a new one... you might point out I should have been running the resistance testing first and I would have to agree with you at this point :-/

BTW - I must embarrassingly admit, I misread your DVM acronym and responded incorrectly. I do have a DVM and have been using it to measure voltage. Just need to switch the red lead to the other port on the device to measure resistance :-|

I was hoping my multiple problems would be solved as I went through and initially diagnosed and replaced all the fried parts I could find.

I believe I started the failure of the Fusible Link with my brush with the Firewall... but it didn't burn up until after the big ZAP when my truck started. I guess I'm assuming the initial short I caused started one of the two small wires in the link to burn enough that when the full voltage was put to it, the circuit failed but not before the system was overloaded.

As for the battery, I have been putting the charger on it between test sessions to keep it healthy.

I have visually inspected both red wires from top to bottom for issues and both appear to be fine; again here appears to be an opportunity for more testing of the resistance.

I have tested at the starter for voltage in RUN & START. Sorry but off the top of my head I can't recall the specific figures but I thought they were fine at the time.

This last go round where the engine was revved up extremely fast when it was started made me think that is the first time I heard the starter really spin up more than normal. Could this be the first time it has stayed engaged beyond starting since, as I've mentioned before, I do not think I've heard it continue to run beyond the initial start?

Your reference to the GEM does not sound promising

 

[stamp11127]

I agree in point with your local mechanic only on the store el cheapo rebuilts. I'm having starters and alternators rebuilt by a local shop that uses OEM parts and haven't had issues with them. So the idea of rebuilts are bad doesn't always hold water. There are some import starters and alts that aren't cost effective to rebuild so new is usually more cost effective when taking the warranty into account.

Visual inspections are a start but only for obvious faults. Meter readings are what will make it or break it.

When your reading the resistance values disconnect both battery cables or you'll fry the DVM.

If you do a voltage drop test the max is .5v over the entire length of pos or neg cables. An example is from the pos term on battery to the pos term on starter with everything in between connected.

If you have the old starter relays, open them up and check the contacts to see if they are pitted or welded together.

When cranking the motor to start, how long do you run the starter in seconds? Are you also using a battery charger with a start setting while cranking?

Don't worry about the GEM, it is out of the picture at this point.

 

[teddym90]

Bad parts will get you every time

Sorry for the long delay... regular work weeks tend to get pretty hectic.

Troubleshooting lead me back to wiring and I ended up replacing the battery cables leading from the Starter Relay down to the Starter.

I had the old ignition switch in the truck and was still having issues; I'd forgotten that I'd swapped them while I was testing because I didn't think the old switch was the issue.

Turns out the ignition switch was bad so when I finally swapped that back to the new switch all was well.

Talk about a long and painful issue, all caused by not protecting my battery cables well enough in the first place!

Thanks for the advice stamp11127!!