Slow grind crank, limp mode...

[Jason_Darius]

I've a 2008 Expedition XLT EL. Randomly it decided to no start and has been sitting for a couple weeks now. When I turn the key to start, I heard the engine slowly turn with a painful grinding metal-sound. With each very slow grinding turn, the dome lights do dim a bit. Also I noticed the green wrench symbol appear (limp mode).

What I've checked and not checked so far...
Before I checked anything, I wanted to see what would happen if I attempted to "jump" the car if it was not getting enough juice to turn the starter over. When I did this I got the same slow grinding churn sound, but then the starter would turn fast (as normal), but still no start. I did notice that the starter would not shut off right away too when I tried this. I also fully charged the battery later and got the same results. After that debacle...

I checked the voltage drop on the battery when starting, went from 12.5 to 10.5. I have not checked the cold crank amps yet with a load test.

I checked every fuse and relay and found nothing wrong.

I have not checked the solenoid as it's such a pain to get to. Thanks Ford.

I checked to see if the Anti-theft light was flashing or still on after I turn the key and it looks fine.

I have not checked the neutral safety switch.

My assumption is that the flywheel or something mechanical is going on with the starter itself where it can't get a solid connection to turn the motor. Or something messed up in the motor and the starter is being prevented from turning it. Not really sure, but seeing how painful it is to get the starter and take it off I wanted to get a very confident diagnosis before getting underway.

Thanks...

 

[99WhiteC5Coupe]

I’d bet your problem lies in a bad battery and/or dirty or poor battery terminal connectors (or a bad ground).

 

[Jason_Darius]

Load tested the battery. CCA were solid.




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[Jason_Darius]

Is there a thread somewhere in the Forum that shows exactly where the starter is? I can't find the starter.

 

[stamp11127]

 

[Jason_Darius]

Thanks. So I cleaned the electrical connections on the starter and reconnected them. Then I reconnected the battery (that had been disconnected from the vehicle and on a battery tender for a week). Then I tried to start it once more and it started right up. I turned it off and tried again and it started again. I drove it about a mile and came back home. After I turned it off I then wanted to see if it would start again and this time no. Dome lights flicker, slow grind cranking and nothing.

Thoughts, theories? My guess is the battery. I’m at a loss at this point. I rechecked the starter connections, battery connections.


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[Jason_Darius]

Replaced the very old battery (6 yrs). Still no start, just a painful grinding cranking sound. Listen (I recorded this earlier)...

 

[Eric Mowrer]

What I would do:
Connect a voltmeter to the battery. What is the voltage before starting and during starting? If the starter drags the voltage severely down then it is shorting internally. If the voltage does not drop then you have a bad wire or connection.


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[Eric Mowrer]

Starter has to spin fast enough to throw out the gear to engage the flywheel. Sounds like it is not moving into full engagement and grinding gears.


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[Jason_Darius]

Starter has to spin fast enough to throw out the gear to engage the flywheel. Sounds like it is not moving into full engagement and grinding gears.


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That was my thinking too. What confused me was why it started twice today after I cleaned the solenoid connections, then back to no start on the third attempt. Thanks for the input Eric.

 

[Jason_Darius]

Starter has to spin fast enough to throw out the gear to engage the flywheel. Sounds like it is not moving into full engagement and grinding gears.


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That was my thinking too. What confused me was why it started twice today after I cleaned the solenoid connections, then back to no start on the third attempt. Thanks for the input Eric.

 

[Jason_Darius]

What I would do:
Connect a voltmeter to the battery. What is the voltage before starting and during starting? If the starter drags the voltage severely down then it is shorting internally. If the voltage does not drop then you have a bad wire or connection.


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Earlier I did this. It dropped to about 10.5 during crank from 12.5.

 

[Eric Mowrer]

Could be a bad contact in the solenoid or a bad section of winding in the motor. You might get away with just replacing the solenoid.


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[Eric Mowrer]

Looks like it’s only sold as a unit.


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[Jason_Darius]

Update. I thought I would try to bypass the Starter Relay by running a jump wire in the relay port to see if it would start there, and it did. Everytime I jumped it from the relay port, via jump wire, it would start right up. Then when I would re-insert the Starter Relay and try to turn the key to start it, nothing but more painful grinding with no start. I switched the relay with another identical one, and nothing. Ignition switch? What should I check next?

 

[Jason_Darius]

Update 2:

Because the ignition switch was so cheap I went ahead and swapped it out. However, no start. I was getting 12.7 volts at the switch too.

Ran more tests. Checked the ignition terminal on the starter solenoid (the small one). When I tried to crank, I was only getting 5 volts there. What's strange is that I am getting 12 volts at the starter relay post 85 with the key turned in the start position - this should trigger the relay correct (30/87 posts)? As I've said before, I removed the starter relay and I jumped the line of 30/87 to start the car - it starts easy. I am getting 12.7 volts from the main power terminal on the starter solenoid to the starter relay (I believe post 87 or 30).

I'm also getting power at the ignition switch at 12.7.

My guess is something with the fuse box connection to the starter relay is causing such a drop. Why would I get 12 volts on post 85 on the starter relay, 12.7 on the post 30 and then once I put the starter relay in the slot I then get 5 volts on the starter solenoid ignition terminal? Oh and yes, I tried different relays (and tested individually).

 

[stamp11127]

The relays are normally wired so that 86/85 are the control portion of the relay while 30-87-87a are on the load(high current) side. 30 is usually the input.

Control input is usually 86 while the output is 85. Check the voltage on 86 to ground while trying to start with the relay removed. If it is still 5v then you have resistance between the ignition switch and 86. If you have 12+ volts there then the problem is between 85 and ground.

 

[Jason_Darius]

Thanks stamp. I'll investigate those areas and let you know what I turn up.

 

[762mm]

If I remember correctly from having done a starter on my Explorer, the control wire at the starter solenoid is 5V and the other (large) wire for the motor is 12V.

I'd say the solenoid or starter motor is probably bad. You can take it out and bring it to a place which rebuilds them for a test. On my Explorer, the wiring to the starter motor corroded through and it would not spin the motor with enough force. It was related to age (corrosion on internal starter wiring) and not to mechanical wear. Bad wiring can do some weird and intermittent things that are very hard to diagnose.

In either case, I put a new starter in there and it started like it just came off the assembly line. Good luck!

 

[Jason_Darius]

So I thought I would run through the fuse box inside the car one more time. Probed every fuse. Then on the radio fuse I wasn’t getting any light. So I replace this five amp fuse with another one. I also checked where it connected and I was not getting 12 V. Instead I was getting .23 V. I also made sure every connector around the fuse box was tight and snug (as I did with each fuse). Then when I tried to crank the car it started right up. I’ve tried it many other times since and it starts up every time. What the hell?

Not sure what this means. I did check the accessory relay and it was getting 12 V. Is the radio fuse supposed to be getting .23 V? That doesn’t sound right to me.


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[stamp11127]

Welcome to intermittent electrical issues.

On the 2007 I worked on a few years ago there are 48 connections on the control circuit that will inhibit starting. Most of them are safety related. If you plan on hunting it down you will need patience. I'm going to assume the 2008 is as bad as the 2007.

When you checked the fuses did you have the key in "run"?

If the radio works it is getting at least 12 volts.

The only components that should have 5 volts are the sensors and it is referred to as "Vref".